Dr. Caroline Fleck is a licensed psychologist, corporate consultant, and Adjunct Clinical Instructor at Stanford University. She holds a PhD in Psychology and Neuroscience from Duke University. Her new book, "Validation", is available now.
551: Validation for Connection & Resilient Kids
Dr. Caroline Fleck
In this episode, Hunter Clarke-Fields talks with Caroline Fleck about the essential role of validation in parenting and emotional connection. They discuss what validation really means—acknowledging children’s feelings without needing to fix everything—and how setting emotional boundaries helps parents support their kids without absorbing their stress. The conversation highlights the difference between validating emotions and solving problems, the importance of modeling self-validation, and how these practices build trust, resilience, and stronger parent-child relationships.
Ep 551- Fleck
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*This is an auto-generated transcript*
Dr. Caroline Fleck (00:00)
If I don't feel like you see and accept me, if I don't feel safe with you, if I don't trust you in that sense, it's hard for me to feel connected to you, right? It's hard to feel deeply loved by somebody that you don't think accepts you as you are. And that goes for children as well.
Hunter (00:24)
You're listening to the Mindful Mama podcast, episode number 551. Today we're talking about validation for connection and resilient kids with Dr. Caroline Fleck.
Hunter (00:38)
Welcome to the Mindful Mama Podcast. Here it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Mama, we know that you cannot give what you do not have. And when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clarke-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting Course and Teacher Training. I'm the author of the international bestseller, “Raising Good Humans”, “Raising Good Humans Every Day”, and the “Raising Good Humans Guided Journal”.
Hello, hello, welcome back to the Mindful Mama Podcast: a big welcome if you're new, I'm so glad you're here. I am so excited today: I had a great conversation with Dr. Caroline Fleck She's a licensed psychologist corporate consultant and adjunct clinical instructor at Stanford University She has a PhD in psychology and neuroscience from Duke University and she is the author of the book “Validation”, which we talk about. We talk about how validation and parenting is so essential for connection, right? And we talk about what validation really means, how you can set emotional boundaries. We talk about the difference between validating emotions and solving problems, the importance of modeling, self-validation, all of this stuff. This is a deep dive into validation. You are gonna learn so much. This is such a valuable episode. I know you're gonna love it. So join me at the table as I talk to Caroline Fleck.
Caroline, thank you so much for coming on the Mindful Momma Podcast.
Dr. Caroline Fleck: Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Hunter: Glad you're here. I am so excited to talk about your book, Validation, because we talk about validation a lot here. And it's something that I talk about in Raising Good Humans and the magic of acknowledging what another person says, especially your kids. So you talk about this and you show how essential validation is for building strong emotional connections. What helped you first see how much it mattered in the parent-child relationship.
Dr. Caroline Fleck: Well, I was trained as a dialectical behavior therapist, so that's where I learned validation. So these were techniques that were developed to help therapists communicate acceptance in really difficult to treat populations, right? Where folks are saying and doing a lot of things that aren't valid, and it's really easy to focus on what needs to change. so within that space, I also began working a lot with adolescents. I think there is, I mean, just having worked with folks across the board, I think there is no demographic that is harder to get through to than an adolescent who just does not want to hear what you have to say.
Hunter: Yes, I imagine that is true.
Dr. Caroline Fleck: Right? It was learning how to use validation with adolescents. That was like the SEALS training in this skill set. And it was just so effective that when I became a parent, was just the most obvious kind of, it was like having a hammer, you know, in your toolkit, if you hadn't had a hammer before. Not that I'm hammering my kid, but once I had a child and I was raising her myself, I found myself constantly reaching for that tool. And it seems just bananas to me that you have to get a PhD in clinical psychology and study this very specific treatment for a very specific disorder to learn skills that will serve you in any relationship, but that are particularly so important for kids to receive and then learn to use on themselves and with other people.
Hunter: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I still find it hard to validate at times. I reflexively, especially with my adolescent girls, like I am reflexively sometimes defensive and then I'm like, God, that was a good place for me to just reflect back to her, like to acknowledge what she was saying, to validate what she was saying. I didn't have to be like, let me put up a wall here. But it's hard because this way of speaking and acknowledging. Well, maybe you should define what validation is so we know exactly what we're talking about.
Dr. Caroline Fleck: Yeah, so as therapists, we use this kind of more heady definition that says validation communicates mindfulness, understanding and empathy, such that another person feels accepted in some part of their experience. Okay, so it shows that you're there, you get it and you care. And the result of that, when you combine those ingredients, another person will feel seen and heard.
So those are the kind of targets you're shooting for in invalidating someone. And you're right. It's like the antithesis of defensiveness. Instead of saying, here's why that's wrong, right? Like what you're saying, it says, well, here's what's right about what you just said. especially if you're working with adolescents, I mean, that can be quite disarming because everybody's just hammering them with what's wrong all day long. And so when you go, “Actually, that's a really good point. I shouldn't have said that. You're right”. They're like, “what?”
Hunter: Okay, well, not to get into the nitty-gritty too soon. Okay, but what if child, this is where I got defensive recently, is that she said I had done a thing or hadn't done a thing that I had done. I was, I had said, we have to stop and I have to get, I forgot my prescription before I drop you off at the barn. And she was like, you didn't tell me. And I said, I said to you guys, I had to do it. You didn't tell me. I guess like if I'm thinking back on it and we were just like, it's stuck in this argument and maybe I should have been like, just like you're, I can see you're, this is super frustrating that you feel like I popped this on you. Something like that? Because I'm not gonna lie and say, I did the thing, you know, whatever, I didn't do the thing that I did do. What would you say you did something?
Dr. Caroline Fleck: Such an important question. As DBT therapists were trained that a person's thoughts might be valid, their behavior might be valid, and or their emotions might be valid. But not all of it. You just have to focus on the kernel of truth. right. So for instance, at the extreme, if I'm working with a schizophrenic client who believes things that that I'm colluding with the government or that aliens are out to get them like that is logically not true. Like that is patently false. I can't validate that because it's not valid and I don't want to. I never want to validate something that is not valid. However, if I believed that, then I would probably be terrified to be speaking with a therapist who I thought was also in on this scheme against me. I might also want to record that conversation or have somebody else present with me while I'm talking to that person that I don't trust. And so I can say, listen, I get that you are terrified. You think that I am colluding with the government? That makes total sense that you would want somebody else here with you. Do you want to give someone a call? In the case of your daughter, I might say something like, doesn't matter who said what, I'm getting the sense that you legitimately didn't realize I had to do this. And so for you right now, that is really frustrating. You had a certain trajectory or schedule in your mind, and now it's been flipped up. It feels like the tables have been flipped upside down. here I am saying, well, you should have known better. And that also sucks.
Hunter (09:41.804)
Yes, yes, that's exactly how I should have said it. Thank you. I need to like go back like remember when you're in the car two weeks ago. is what I should have said. I do that all the time, actually. And I'm really glad you flagged that because I think it's... I want my daughter to do this in her relationships. I want her to realize after the fact, ooh, I was defensive there. Because it's our knee-jerk reaction. It's our fight or flight, you know, sympathetic reaction to just either defend or attack. But once we've calmed down, we can often see more objectively what was going on. And we can see what was valid for the other person. And so like, I would love it. I love this idea of her as an adult going back to her kid or her spouse or her whomever and saying, you know what, when we spoke last week, I think I was overlooking something really important, which is that like, you felt like this was sprung on you and that I wasn't respectful of that. And I'm sorry, I disagreed with you on the point, but that's not the point. The point is you were upset.
Dr. Caroline Fleck:
So, you know, just- Gottmans, John and Julie Gottman, I once did this training that they did on raising emotionally intelligent children. John Gottman makes this great point about like, go out there and screw up. Like when you mess up with your kids, it's great because we've got to teach these guys how to apologize and how to make amends. And that's the only way to model it for them is through these moments. And I think of something similar when it comes to like missed opportunities for validation.
Hunter (11:25)
Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break.
Hunter (13:08). I love that. Okay. The Gottman said it and Caroline Fleck said it. Like let's take it to heart. I say it too, I mean, but it's much easier said than done, I think. Sometimes it's so much easier said than done. my God. I know. And a lot of parents, you know, feel like, worry that if they're validating child's feelings, especially a little child maybe who's having upset feelings, it means that they're giving in or they're losing authority. People also worry that they're gonna stoke the fire, right? They're gonna add fuel to the fire, right? So can you talk about that point of like, “am I going to add to it”? And also how do you explain the difference between kind of validation and being permissive?
Dr. Caroline Fleck:
Okay, again, excellent question. Because there's a really nuanced point here that I think most parents don't receive this message. And as a result, they feel handcuffed, ineffective, and trapped in conflict with their kids. Like anything they say or do is going to do damage. So here's the thing. If a kid is in full on tantrum mode, like losing it, and I don't care if it's an adolescent or a toddler, all right, you know when they've kind of flipped their lid. In that mode, attention, giving someone attention, isn't the best idea. We know that attention is one of the more reinforcing experiences, even if it's negative. Even negative attention can be reinforcing. mean, torture in this country consists of depriving people of attention by putting them in isolation. So it's very, very reinforcing.
So if a kid has flipped their lid, I'm actually not going to lean in with a lot of validation in that moment. Okay. Because it will most likely cause the tantrum to flare up. My daughter used to do this thing when she was younger, where she would look in the mirror. I don't know if other kids do this, but she would start to like lose it, like start to tantrum. Then she'd look in the mirror and herself crying and then she'd really cry harder! I think I've done that. I think I've definitely done that. And so if I swept it in that moment and was like, it is unfair, isn't it? Like, you saw it, I said this and that, like, no way. She's just going to go from like, you know, she's going to implode at that point. What I need to do there is smooth and move. All right. So I'm not going to feed it a ton of validation in that moment. Her behavior is so ineffective. It's so kind of quote unquote, like invalid, right? It's not a valid reaction that I need to minimize that first. And so I'll do that through distraction. I'll tell her we can talk once she calms down. I can help her use self-regulation skills, what have you. Maybe just take a moment to regulate yourself because it's very upsetting. Just take a break.
Hunter:
Yeah. I'm closing the door. You're going to get five minutes. I'm going to get five minutes. Absolutely. Right? There's nothing that says you have to be cool, calm, and collected at all times. The important thing, however, is that you circle back. So once that storm has passed, once the tantrum has resolved itself or cried itself out-
Dr. Caroline Fleck:
And my version of this is what call like what happened for you. And I do this with actually my adolescent clients and adult clients too. Where I'll say like, all right, so what happened for you? And she'll give me her experience: “we were driving on the freeway and you were screaming at me”. I'm always screaming to her, which is frankly hilarious to me because I don't think I've ever screamed in my life. But in every version of our fights, I'm screaming. It's funny what kids who don't experience a lot of yelling experience a raised voice as when they'd like, honey, you don't even know what yelling is. It's not yelling. I know. Yeah. You want to see yelling? We can turn on the yelling. Exactly. So she'll kind of give like a caricature version of me. You know, like I'm a cartoon with like smoke coming out of my ears and I'm throwing stuff and it's just very... And in that moment, I'll use that opportunity to look for what's valid in her experience. No. I'll say, listen, I didn't throw a basketball, okay? But I can see how it might've felt like I was throwing a lot of things that you didn't want to hear.
Is that fair? You felt like you had earned this reward and you didn't get it. And that was really frustrating. And it felt like I didn't understand that. And like, I didn't care. Okay? So can validate, validate, validate. And then I'll do this other little flip where I'll say, now let me tell you what happened for me, from my side. From my perspective, I saw you walking towards the edge of that pool. And even though I had told you you could go in as a reward for what you'd done earlier, it was you were not ready to go in. And I yelled, I said, hey, yelled, I said, hey, come back. And I jumped over. And then you pulled away from me and you started going again. So I said, we're not going. And I was feeling so scared. In my heart, I was afraid you were going to drown. And all I could think about was I have to save my baby.
Now, she might push back and say, that's not what happened. And if it gets us back into the fight, I abandon it. This isn't about me getting the validation I deserve as a parent. It's more just about modeling and creating more like insight, perspective, right? In a very delicate way. So that the summary of that is, know, don't worry about validating in a tantrum. It's a lost cause, but don't miss the opportunity to circle back. perspective tape. And when you circle back, can do a lot of, makes total sense that you were upset. I would be upset too, but it's not okay. Because typically the behavior isn't valid in a tantrum, but it's not okay to throw things when you don't get what you want. It's okay to feel sad. It's not okay to stomp up the stairs. Validate the emotion, challenge the behavior that's ineffective.
Hunter (19:40)
So, hold the boundary while saying, you're really communicating like, care how I care about your feelings. I see you. I see you're upset. I'm, I'm paying attention, right? And I care, but we, you know, we have a boundary here and we're not going to hold that boundary and, know, giving some reasons sort of why that boundary, I think that's beautiful. That's so validation is validating the experience of your kids saying that that's real, you know, what you felt is real, then, uh-huh, permissiveness is something altogether very different. It's not that it's like, and then you get your way, which may not be, that is certainly not the best way of responding to that. What permissiveness, yeah, that's a really good point. What permissiveness does on accident is it validates invalid behavior. It says, and so that behavior is okay. You are upset, so it's fine that you hit your brother. No, it's okay that you are upset. I would have been upset too. It's not okay to hit when we are upset. I'm not allowed to hit when I get upset or what have you. So it is about like allowing kids to hold those two things simultaneously true. My emotions are valid and the way I handled them was not. Okay? That's the lesson, the nuance we're getting at there. Yeah. Yeah. This is so good. I love like diving in deep, deep with this. Okay. when kids are emotional or acting out, right? It's easy, super easy to dismiss or fix or be defensive. Yeah. Why is it so hard for us to sit with those feelings instead of like, we want to change the feelings, right? Why is it so hard for us to, to restrain ourselves from changing it and just sit with those feelings?
Dr. Caroline Fleck (21:31)
We are hardwired to problem solve and we are even more inclined to protect our children from pain, any pain, whatever it may be. And so we want it to quote unquote, be okay. All right. They come home, they didn't make the soccer team. We want to give them pointers on what they could do next time to make it because we don't want them to feel bad. We want to protect them from that outcome, which is all right and good. And it's part of our instinct, but it's not always effective because here's what happens. And here's what I've seen with almost all of the adults that I work with. We're all very good at problem solving. Someone comes to us with an issue, we can give advice immediately. And we can't wait to give it because we see like a solution. It's so fun. know how to... One of the things I've learned over the years is about, you know, 80 to 90 % of the time when someone comes to us with an issue. You know how to solve this. They're first and foremost seeking validation. And 80 to 90 % of the time, what we give is problem solving. And with our children, I think we're closer to like 95%. It's really hard for us to tolerate and sit with them being uncomfortable. And yet, unfortunately, when we are too quick to problem solve, we teach them inadvertently that it's not okay to feel bad that is a problem to fix. That disappointment shouldn't happen. Or frustration, or sadness, or guilt. And that's a problem. That's right. There's something that needs to be fixed. If instead when my kid comes home, having not made the soccer team, I say, “my gosh, you worked so hard. this is devastating, babe. There's something wrong with it. I'm sorry. This hurts. This hurts. This hurts. It's disappointing. Okay. All right. Do you want to go for a walk” And I transitioned to like, “what would help soothe that emotion”? It's okay to soothe and tend to that emotion, but let it be. Let's acknowledge it and let's not be too quick to fix it. Give it that breathing room. I mean, I think about this, I say this all the time, I think of like all our feelings, right? All of our feelings are like little toddlers that are holding onto our pit links. And they're just like there and they are not gonna let go until they are felt, heard and acknowledged, right? Like for us, for ourselves, but also for others, right? Like when somebody, if you go and talk to anybody, because you have a problem or someone comes to you because they have a problem. Those are those feelings that want to be seen, heard, and acknowledged. That is the digestion process for feelings is the feel it, acknowledge it, peace.
Hunter:
I love that. Yeah. I love that's the digestion process that you make a really good point there. And this may be, I think it does relate to children, but it also relates a lot to adults. If someone keeps repeating an issue or bringing up the same thing over and over again, it's typically because they haven't felt validated in it or they cannot, they have not figured out how to validate themselves. You know, they're in conflict with their mother-in-law or their father-in-law or whatever, or that kid at school. And you feel like you've said a hundred times, yeah, that sucks. And you're like, let's move on. But what's happening there is that person as in your language, they haven't digested it. And more often than not, it's because they haven't, they can't validate themselves. They don't know how they're looking for signals from the environment that their reaction and their thoughts and their emotions are valid. And they're just not absorbing it. They're having a hard time internalizing it.
Dr. Caroline Fleck (25:31)
And so they keep coming back for more. This makes me think of like all of the parents, right? The adults like, why is it so hard for us to do this? Well, our feelings are probably, were just invalidated so often. Don't cry, go to your room. Here's the solution. Whatever it is, like that just validating feelings was not in the parenting repertoire, you know, 25 years ago. No, and I mean, let's be honest, at the other extreme, expressions of emotion were responded to with violence or just extreme forms of invalidation. I'll give you something to cry about type of stuff. And I always want to believe that we're far from that, but we're not. And many of us grew out of that.
And so yeah, no wonder when our kids come to us and they're, you know, crying hysterically over something that seems trivial, it's hard for us to just sit with the validity of their emotions.
Hunter: Yeah, I agree. It takes a lot of being able to tolerate discomfort to be able to be there. And sometimes when I'm talking to parents about validation in mindful parenting, we call it reflective listening, Like reflecting back, listening. And one of the things I say to them that I say like, use this mantra : “not my problem”. Because if someone else has a problem, it's not your problem. It's not you. You're not the one who has to fix it. You're not the one whose belly hurts. If you say to yourself, not my problem, then you can kind of step outside it a little and then you can just observe and you can be the helper. You can be the healer. You can be the steady one. You can be the one who's validating, right? If you're not in it and the feelings aren't wrong or bad, they're just your kids feelings and it's okay for them to have the feelings and it's not a problem or it's not your problem. And then you can kind of be there for them. I have a chapter in my book on this concept, and it's something that a supervisor back when I was in grad school said to me, and it was like the greatest gift. I reflect on this multiple times a day, both in my practice and my life. And it's if someone comes to you with an emotion or an issue, ask yourself, should I respond with validation or problem solving?
Dr. Caroline Fleck (28:08.748)
Now you can respond with validation upfront and then switch to problem solving at some point, but at any given moment, you can only do one or the other. And if you just go on impulse, if you don't have that pause, if you don't ask yourself that question, you will nine times out of 10 jump in with problem solving. And so if you can internalize, I want to tie that up as a gift, give it to listeners and be like, please, please practice this: introduce this pause, put it on your phone as I've had clients do this as like their screensaver, problem solving question mark, validation question mark, not screensaver, but like the wallpaper, right? To just kind of internalize like, which do I need to be doing? And then the same applies to yourself, right? Like if you're struggling, if you've experienced loss or jealousy or pain, do you need to problem solve it right away? Or are you really needing to just see the validity in what you're experiencing and experience that? Yeah, likely you need to digest those feelings.
Hunter (29:16)
Okay. You point out that invalidation happens in subtle ways. So what are some of the common ways that parents unintentionally invalidate their kids? And well, we talked about some of them, what we could do instead, the problem solving, but are there other ways?
Dr. Caroline Fleck:
Yeah, I think, you know, back in the day when was studying invalidation and learning these tech, learning validation skills, they always had these extreme examples like that, you know, walk it off or I'll give you something to cry about, right? These very obvious, obviously invalidating extreme statements. And our modern day version of that goes something like, you're too old for that. That's a big one. You shouldn't be having a tantrum, you're 11. You shouldn't be X, Y, or Z, you're in fourth grade. Okay. Can you imagine if someone came up to you after, say, like you hadn't worked out when you planned to, and they came up and said, I mean, come on. They came up to me, Caroline, you're 43 years old and you didn't exercise today. Like, what's, what's that? How long have you been hearing that you need to do this? Right? Like it's immediately shaming if you flip it.
Right. We also do the friend comparison. Do you think Tanya does this with her, when she's home with her parents? Right. Like you, what we're saying in these moments is you're, you're, we want to say your behavior is ineffective, but what we're really suggesting is that your emotions, your experience is invalid. It's wrong. Okay. This is very dangerous when we couple emotions with behavior. I can say, “I think you have other ways of dealing with this”, but I would never want to say, “your friend doesn't do this when she's out with her parents, why are you doing it”? Those are some kind of more subtle ways when we're doing these comparisons, when we actually teach our kids inadvertently, I am so guilty of this by the way, these things have come out of my mouth, I promise, but I don't want to teach my kid to compare herself to other people in determining whether or not her feelings are valid. It's not like a great approach to how to manage yourself.
Hunter (31:44)
Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break.
I want to interject here because those are definitely thoughts that would pop into my mind. Those are thoughts that pop into our heads. And we have these thoughts because we have all the thoughts, the good, the bad, and the ugly, right? And I think this is a place where sometimes people find it hard to understand like, where does like mindfulness help us, right? This developing this kind of non-reactivity or this awareness of our thoughts, et cetera. And this is one of the ways it helps us like, oh, look at all, I can see, I have all of these ugly thoughts. I have thoughts like that, like, oh yeah, they're a friend undo that, you know, but I'm just like, pull it into my, like, don't say it. I remember when Maggie was little, I was successful at this. And another way was that I watched her telling all her little sister's friends what to do and telling everyone what to do in the play. And I remember thinking the B word all the time and then just saying to myself, nope, she has leadership potential. She has leadership potential. I just want to acknowledge that it's okay that we have those thoughts.
Anyway, I also want to say that in those moments, I've looked at, I've kind of chained out using the validation skills I've learned, because a lot of it is about understanding where certain thoughts and emotions are coming from. And when I have those thoughts, like, why is she at, like, what is wrong with her? she should know better by now. When I have those thoughts and I chase back and look for where they're coming from for me, it's often guilt. Like, I'm often feeling-
Dr. Caroline Fleck (35:20)
Like, “what did I do wrong as a parent that she's acting this way”?
Hunter:
Yeah, have I messed up?
Dr. Caroline Fleck:
That's a lot of what is coming out in those moments. It's our own shame, guilt, concern, fear that we've created a monster. And so again, it's like, as you kind of suggested, validation is like a mindfulness exercise in which the other person is the focus of your attention in a non-judgmental present way. That is what you are focusing on. And there is no judgment there. It's just observation. Just seeing with curiosity. Okay, what is going on for this person? Yeah, I think of some of the thinking about the other ways we kind of unintentionally invalidate some, some ways I think are so kind of like seemingly benign, like a little toddler or, know, a little kid gets hurt and knows like, you're okay. You're okay. You're fine. You're fine. You're fine. Right? Like, whereas we could just say, I bet that hurt. Right. Or something like that. And those are super benign ways, but it's nice to of course practice this when they're young and it really helps when they're young too as well. We've kind of focused a little I think on teens, but it really does help this validation as you discover when they're little.
And on that one, I want to give another note that just reminded me of when my daughter was young, because you can lean in with validation and sometimes, even if they weren't in tantrum mode, all of a sudden their emotion jumps up. Like my daughter, I remember she was afraid of Harry Potter. We had seen the Voldemort. She saw the first movie and there's a scene with Voldemort in it and she was terrified. She went to bed, she had a nightmare. She’s up, she's crying, she's- I made this nightmare. And I slept, nightmares, I'm so sorry. nightmares are terrifying. I hate when I get them. That's what I said to validate her. And then she lost it. And I was like, uh-oh. And I quickly dialed it back with, know, but we've got a dream catcher here that will help catch our dreams. You know, if we clap three times or something that I made up in the moment, whatever, I may have fibbed a little bit to get out of that situation. But the point is, if you upset the apple cart further, you can always just walk it back. know? And like, if you experiment with this stuff, you're gonna run into that. There's gonna be times where like, whoops, that was too much. Whoops, they were kind of flooded and I didn't realize it. And that's okay. I want you to have those experiences. I want you to feel out where that line is with your kid, because every kid speaks a different language when it comes to this stuff. And don't get discouraged. That's part of what it takes to develop these skills.
Hunter (38:20)
Well, let's think about, I we've talked a lot about validation and, and, but we haven't actually described like some of the benefits and the changes that happen once we start to really use validation in our relationships and especially in parent-child relationships. So in your experience, have you seen how dynamics change once validation becomes a consistent part of communication?
Dr. Caroline Fleck:
So we often talk about the importance of trust in relationships. think everybody fundamentally accepts that like trust is pretty critical to our relationships. But what is trust based on? Trust is based on validation. If I don't feel like you see and accept me, if I don't feel safe with you, if I don't trust you in that sense, it's hard for me to feel connected to you, right? It's hard to feel deeply loved by somebody that you don't think accepts you as you are. And that goes for children as well. And so one of the things that we find with kiddos is that it creates this alliance. It really solidifies the safety and trust within a relationship, okay? That goes for kids, it goes for other dynamics as well. But being a safe confidant- being someone for whom it's safe to explore your feelings with- is really just invaluable for children. So it increases trust. As a result, it increases intimacy. Okay. It also makes you so much more influential. And this was probably one of the greatest breakthroughs of the past 50 years in psychology was this realization that when we communicate acceptance, we facilitate change. So when I am able to validate a kiddo's emotions really well, they are much more likely to explore how they can respond differently next time. If they sense that I get what's going on, I'm a trusted advisor here. If I don't get it, why would they listen to me?
Hunter:
Yeah, you're really seeing them and hearing them. You're listening. Yeah. So then they feel free to listen to you.
Dr. Caroline Fleck:
It feels safer to do so. Yeah, they don't feel like they're going to get attacked with, and you should do this and you have to do this and what you're doing now is wrong or bad. Okay. If I really get that, like, you feel really out of control in these moments. I didn't realize how overwhelming that was. my gosh. Thank you for making me aware of that. You know, why don't we put together a little kit with stuff that could help you calm down when you feel this way? Would that be fun? Maybe we could make a little art project out of it, know, something to this effect. So I'm, I'm constantly getting buy-in essentially. So if you want to effectively influence behavior, you have to know how to communicate acceptance. think that is something that we've come to appreciate in psychology that for whatever reason just hasn't made it out of, you know, labs and therapy rooms.
Hunter (41:41)
So I'm picturing for the parents who may be stuck in a little combative cycle with a child, a school-age child or a teen where they're stuck and a kid's giving you snark and they're not talking to you a lot and you're having combative situations. What I'm hearing from you, Caroline, is like, they should be finding ways to be able to listen and validate and somehow. Is that what you would say?
Dr. Caroline Fleck:
In some way, that is what I would say. And again, I've worked a lot with oppositional folks who are really kiddos who are really like, I remember I had one 11 year old be knocked over my bookcase in my office and I was like, oh my gosh, it's a really defiant behavior. But I am constantly with those folks in particular, I am looking for any behavior that I can reinforce with validation, because validation is deeply reinforcing. It's the most positive type of attention we can give. So when I say to a kid who's doing everything else quote unquote wrong, but they showed up on time, I'm to say, whoa, hey, you did it. You came in on time. I'm so excited. what's different? What's different? I wasn't even on time. You showed me up, right? So if I'm focusing and seeing, casting a light on where they are growing, where they are changing, and if I validate that, if I see it, then the motivation to get more of that light increases. That is how I work with those folks.
Hunter:
I imagine like for maybe something less extreme, like if you have, I don't know, like a teen who's being snarky with you. I mean, I guess I might say, I guess I would say that there's room also for your feelings, right? Like some, I don't want people to feel the mistake, feel from this conversation that you just have to be like, a punching bag. And she'll like punching bag and just completely validate. You know, if my kid was snarky to me, I might say, wow, you're really upset. And you know what? When you talk to me like that, I feel sad. And I makes it so I don't want to particularly hang out with you. And that feels really sad. I might not get a, my goodness, mother, I'm so very terribly sorry. right away, right? Like, it would turn around much more quickly and like within like an hour versus where it would be kind of go on and on and on for days if I had responded defensively.
Dr. Caroline Fleck (44:37)
That's right. So again, like it's not saying you have to do this all the time in every circumstance. You ask yourself, is this something to respond to with validation or problem solving? And if someone is behaving in an ineffective, invalid way, invalid meaning it's not helpful for our relationship for them or for me, I'm going to say something. You know, I'm not going to validate there. I'm going to say like, if you could find another way to say that, that would be really helpful because I'm having a hard time hearing you. Yeah, we need to work on that. Okay. But what I would do is I'm kind of zooming out and because my relationship with this person is kind of strained, I know that I'm also, I've, I'm also really also focusing on the negative. That's part of what we do when we're in a bad, kind of off balance dynamic with someone, we get into negative sentiment override. We've, are just drawn to everything they're doing wrong. And so I am looking for the comments outside of the snark. I am looking for the- even just neutral interactions. And that's what I'm reinforcing. When I get the snark, I'm very clear. Like, no, I'm not going to drive you to your friend's house. No. You don't talk to me that way. Because in the world, that's not how the world works. You don't act snarky and then get things. So I'm not going to play that way. I'll also often do this thing of like, I think it hurts you. I don't think you feel good about yourself. When you act or talk that way. And I care about you too much to just let this get out of control. I don't think anybody feels good when they're rude to people. Yeah.
Hunter (46:15)
I like that. I like that sort of, you know, I realized I invalidated a thing that I just the other day, my daughter, I've been worried about my daughter getting up and checking her phone. And then the other day it was spring break. she, guess she's got bored with checking her phone, but she got up and she was like lying on this day bed and reading a book. And I was like, and I saw her and I was like, okay, I hope it's not too obvious. But I like went over and I was like, I love seeing you. Yeah. In the morning or something like that.
Well, this is such an amazing conversation. This is so helpful to dive into the nuance of this. If you could just leave parents with one clear takeaway about why validation matters, not just for the short term, but for just raising emotionally resilient kids, what would it be?
Dr. Caroline Fleck:
What would be my one takeaway? In the absence of a child knowing how they feel and why they feel that way, it is going to be incredibly difficult for them to be at peace with themselves. And the only way, the only way that they can learn that is through the example you set, both in modeling yourself and modeling them. And again, this is not about making things that aren't valid valid or being a pushover. It's about having limits, having boundaries and rules, and seeing the larger picture of what's going on for someone when they break those rules or what have you.
Hunter:
I love that. Getting curious, trying to understand. think that's really, yeah, what this is all talking about. This is so wonderful. Caroline Fleck's book, “Validation”, is available everywhere books are sold. You should definitely go get a copy right now.
Dr. Caroline Fleck (48:19)
That's great. That's great. When Raising Good Humans came out, they had no idea. They didn't realize I already had a podcast and so they had someone else read my audiobook. was like, I have a podcast though.
Hunter (49:04)
I loved talking to Caroline. I feel like this was such a powerful conversation. It's so important, so essential. I hope that you got a lot out of it, because I certainly did. In fact, we talked about how compatible our work is and it would be so cool to speak in different places and workshops- someone hire both me and Caroline for speaking at a workshop! That would be so cool to talk about validation and then the role that mindfulness plays in that. So essential.
So yeah, if you liked it, I know you're wanna share it. Text or tell a friend about the show today. Text someone who could use it. It's so helpful. Text a bunch of people so no one feels singled out. And let me know what you think. I'm on the socials at @MindfulMamaMentor and I'd love to know what you think.
And if you want more episodes about how to talk to little ones, how to communicate better, we have so many episodes about these. And in fact, we have, we can get you a unique to you five episode playlist if you do the Mindful Mama Podcast Quiz. And it's at MindfulMamaMentor.com/quiz. And you just answer some questions and you get this playlist. And one of them is all about communication. So. just a quick quiz and a set of headphones away: MindfulMamaMentor.com/quiz.
All right. I hope this week makes your relationships better, stronger, more connected, and really impacts your life in a positive way. And I will be practicing those things too. I hope you have a great summer and I hope you're enjoying all these great episodes. So many good ones going on. Next week is a powerhouse with Blaise Aguirre. I know you're going to love it. I will be back Tuesday to talk to you then. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. Namaste.
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