572: The Truth About Executive Functioning- Supporting Neurodiverse Kids to Thrive
Seth Perler
Seth Perler, executive function coach, speaker, and advocate for neurodiverse learners, joins Hunter Clarke-Fields to discuss the challenges and opportunities of parenting neurodiverse children.
They explore common myths about executive function, the differences between neurodiverse and neurotypical kids, and how curiosity, empathy, and mindful parenting can make a real difference. Seth shares practical strategies for supporting children’s growth, managing homework and routines, and creating environments where kids can thrive despite challenges.
Takeaways
The myth of 'can't' vs 'won't' is crucial in understanding neurodiverse children.
Executive function challenges can significantly impact a child's ability to complete tasks.
Curiosity in parenting fosters better understanding and connection with children.
Finding balance in how much to support children is essential for their growth.
Simplifying schedules can help children focus better on important tasks.
Mindfulness practices can enhance parenting effectiveness and emotional regulation.
Listening to children is key to understanding their needs and challenges.
Creating a supportive environment allows children to thrive despite challenges.
Self-compassion is important for parents navigating the complexities of raising neurodiverse children.
Growth is possible even in the messy and hard parts of parenting.
Ep 572- Perler
Read the Transcript 🡮
*This is an auto-generated transcript*
Hunter (00:00)
You're listening to the Mindful Mama Podcast, episode #572. Today we are talking about the truth about executive function and supporting neurodiverse kids to thrive with Seth Perler.
Welcome to the Mindful Mama Podcast. Here it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Mama, we know that you cannot give what you do not have. And when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clarke-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting Course and Teacher Training. I'm the author of the international bestseller, “Raising Good Humans”, “Raising Good Humans Every Day”, and the “Raising Good Humans Guided Journal”.
If you have a neurodiverse kid, today's episode is for you. Welcome, welcome back to the podcast or welcome back, welcome or welcome back. Anyway, this is a great episode. I'm going to be talking to Seth Perler, former teacher turned executive function, ADHD and neurodiversity activist, speaker, coach and advocate. He is dedicated to helping struggling students learn to navigate school and life. And he is coming back to the podcast to talk about neurodiversity and executive function. And you're going to hear some real practical strategies for supporting children's growth, managing homework and routines and creating environments where kids can thrive despite their challenges. So join me at the table as I talk to Seth Perler.
Hey Seth, thank you for coming back to the Mindful Mama podcast.
Seth Perler:
So good to see you again, Hunter.
Hunter:
I'm glad you're here. I love the work that you do with ADHD kids and neurodiverse kids. And I know you've worked with a lot of families around executive function. was wondering, what are some of the biggest myths that you see parents believing in their neurodiverse kids?
Seth Perler:
Well, if we're talking about, there's so many directions that we could go with this, but let's start with this. If we're talking about nerd virgin kids with executive function challenges, one of the biggest myths is the myth about the can't and the won't. So basically the myth that their child won't do something that they're being well full or defiant or just not trying hard enough or just need to work harder or just need to pay attention or the, these sorts of things that are based on a belief that it is a won't, they won't apply themselves. They won't do the thing. and so.
Seth Perler (02:55.31)
If that's the myth and the reality is that they can't do the thing that they don't have the executive executive function skill sets to do the thing that they're being asked to in the moment in the context of the moment that they are in at the time. Well, then we are going to intervene and our efforts to support our kid are going to look very different if it's a “can't” or “won't”. And if it is a “can't”, we're going to be much more empathetic, much more compassionate, much more understanding, much more, much better listeners, much more connected, much more present, much less judgy. And if it's a “won't”, then we often revert to old traditional interventions that don't work like shame and blame, like punishments and rewards, like lecturing and nagging and pushing and prodding and enabling and this, that, and the other, but things that ultimately are not empowering them to build skills. So that's one of the biggest myths right there.
Hunter:
You know, that's funny because like the mindset of can't or won't obviously is so important there, right? But like the effectiveness of the parenting doesn't change in either way. Even if it was like, I'd won't, like then you still, like there's something going on. You still want to be like empathetic and teaching and nonjudgmental, right? Like that would be much more effective. Even if it were, I'd won't. It's so funny.
Seth Perler:
Yes, it would be, but it's so like deep in us, meaning like we've grown up with so many, with so many of those myths that we've internalized them and we believe them. And I think that part of the reason for that is, that people who have exceptional executive function, they seem to be more motivated. mean, there's, it's, it's probably different, like a feeling like when somebody with great executive function, for example, they accomplish something, they feel like, my gosh, I'm so glad that's done. Like they feel a sense of accomplishment, blah, blah. For a lot of us with the executive function challenges, like we don't, we're motivated to check the thing off the list. It's like, want to avoid it as long as I can. And then when it's done, it's not like a big relief. It's just like, okay, the stupid thing's done. You know, like it is literally a different experience. So I think that when we see people who have such good executive function, then it perpetuates the fallacy. It makes it seem like, they just care more. They're just working harder. They're just more motivated, blah, blah. One of the challenges though there, I think with a lot of people with exceptional executive function is- which we should define, by the way, I realize- we probably should next episode. We'll get to that. But, with people with really good executive function, people who are really good at, say getting things done executive function has to do with how the brain helps us to get things done. And where it really everybody has it. But where it really matters with these kids is when they're not getting done the important things that they need to get done in order to build life skills that are going to benefit them to have a good education and be able to have a life filled with choices and possibilities and freedom and opportunities.
Hunter (06:42)
Yeah, I can even see that in, you we don't have anyone with ADHD or neurodiversity in my family, but there's obviously a lot of diversity in how we are. And I can see my husband has this like incredible executive function. Like his prefrontal cortex is ridiculous. And I can also see that in my oldest daughter and then myself and my other daughter, we're like, we're just a little more- we're not necessarily attentive to every single detail in the same way. I've been done, I've done a, you know, this personality test that showed that, you know, my administrative skills are like rock bottom terribly bad, like really horrible. And it's just interesting to see how easy it is. And yet, and the world rewards that so quickly and easily. You know, it's so celebrated.
Seth Perler:
Well, that gets into another myth that I was, where I was headed to and that is- I'll give more of a definition later. Yeah, yeah. But is that somebody with really good executive function, like assuming that because they're really good at organizing and time management and planning and getting things done, it's then assuming that the things that they are doing are the worthwhile things to do. So oftentimes people with really strong executive function, they're very motivated by getting things done, but they're not, they're often afraid to question things and they're often compliant and they are often not always, but they often pay for it way into adulthood when they start realizing, “Hey, I have thoughts of my own and they are not these. I don't want to be compliant to this. I don't agree with this. This is not ethical or this is not an integrity for me. Whoa, that is messing with my mind”… so that is also a myth. Just the thing, because somebody is good at doing the thing and they're really good, let's say at their job. then 17 years into their job, they get laid off and the rug's totally been pulled out from under them. And they're really good at that structure and everything. But now with this lack of it, it's like complete meltdown and I'm generalizing. This is not everybody at all. I also have a super random thought I wanted to share-
Hunter (09:06)
Please share it
Seth Perler:
Cause I was thinking about it today and it's like, what you said about the- you said your family is not necessarily neurodivergent. There's no one that has a label or a diagnosis. Okay. I was thinking today about this. I was working on like YouTube topics that I want to do in the next couple of months, but I was wanting to do one about like kudos to the neurodivergent people. Like there's so much talk of, or to the neurotypical people, excuse me. There's so much talk about neurodivergence nowadays. And this is great that people start to be noticed that their differences are awesome. We need to embrace that and play to people's strengths, et cetera, et cetera. But also, neurotypical people are freaking awesome people. It's almost like it's bad to be neurotypical. It is not, that is awesome. And it goes into this topic of asynchrony and the get to the world. won't get into that. Like we all have variations, but there's more or less typical, let's say. And there's very atypical. But so I, anyhow, I was just thinking of doing content around that. it's like, everybody is so important on this planet. And everybody has has their own really unique strengths and things to offer the world and and gifts to give.
Hunter (10:35)
Stay tuned for more mindful mama podcast right after this break.
Actually, I thought this is so interesting the idea that everybody is like, so, you know, we're labeling ourselves and that's really helpful in a lot of ways. Like, I have ADHD, blah, blah, blah, or I have this. And that can be really helpful. But someone was mentioning like sort of back in the day, it would be like so-and-so is really quirky. They have this funky thing about them that they always do X, Y, Z. And we just were like, we celebrated people's quirkiness in a way that it wasn't medicalized. was kind of like, “this is my quirky friend who has this quirky habit”. just like this more of a, I don't know, acceptance of all of our differences without, know, and seeing the humor in it and just rather than it being sort of, I don't know, diagnosed labeled medicalized and it was just kind of an interesting observation. thought, yeah, you know, I always had these strange, quirky people in my life, because I grew up with a dad who's an artist and, you know, and so I knew a ton of those people. don't know. We're definitely diverging from neurodivergence.
Seth Perler (13:42)
But yeah, probably some of them would be neurodivergent. mean, I don't know. mean, speaking of the idea of like neurodivergence versus neurotypical, like what do you, can you break down how for people who are saying, okay, my kid is showing some of these traits. Maybe the people are saying my kid should be tested. My kids has trouble getting things done.
Hunter:
And for the people who haven't heard the first episode with Seth, it’s episode 386. I know, we talked about how, Seth, this was something that you struggled with yourself. this is one of the reasons and still do and is why you are doing all this work to help these kids. can you break down how the executive function challenges might show up differently for neurodiverse kids versus neuro-typical kids?
Seth Perler:
Yeah. First of all, I would argue and other people might see it differently that by definition, most neurotypical kids have good enough executive function. So for lack of a better term, it's literally just the term good enough executive function is good enough. know, it may be problematic sometimes, but it's not a problem that is interfering with their life on regular basis. Whereas when you have somebody with what I would call legitimate executive function challenges, a lot of times I'll say legitimate executive function challenges. What that means is that whether it's from a brain injury, whether it's from trauma, whether it's ADHD, whether there's some other diagnosis, for whatever reason, there are very legitimate challenges where a parent or a teacher is really concerned about this kid and their ability relative to their peers, their same age peers, relative to their same age peers that they're, that they really are struggling in a different way than their peers are. That is, you know, you can't necessarily measure that on a test, maybe you can, but, that is really to me a gut feeling thing. and you kind of know when you know, like, wow, like I'm concerned.
And I'm not just being overly concerned, like compared to their same age peers, they are not in the same place. There's a delay there. That's gotta take some figuring out, because I can imagine from the parent's point of view, you're like, I don't want to be overly, you know, am I projecting this? Is it just my worry? Is it my parental worry? Like, am I creating this? Right? I mean, I imagine that's a big fear. That is true too. you definitely want to not. Okay. So there's the gut check. Let's say the gut check is first, then after the gut check, I'm making this stuff up a Hunter as we were talking here. but after the cut check, then is the reality check. And that means checking in with your friends, with professionals, with other people, with chat GPT, which by the way is not always right. I'm sure everybody knows that, but just to put that out there, but checking with your resources and checking with doing a reality check then. So if the gut check is like, my gosh, I'm terrified. Well, then do the reality check next, because sometimes we can be, you know, over worried and overly concerned and we can talk to some people who really get it. You know, if you're talking to an experienced teacher, for example, who's to work with, who worked with hundreds of kids and they tell you your kiddo is where they're supposed to be. Yes, they may be struggling with things here and there.
But this is not something that I'm super concerned about. Well, you can probably take their word for it. I would still do your due diligence and ask a few more people, but sometimes Hunter, we can ask so many people that we just end up confusing ourselves more and more, you know, but, but it is something to definitely look into. then if you're really concerned, then keep investigating. Don't don't give up. And if you, got some relief from that, that's fine too. I do want to say that. We live in a time when there is so much vying for our kids' attention, unlike any time before that, things that seem like legitimate executive function challenges can be very skewed by just the amount of, you know, how, how over-scheduled kids are, and how, how many things they're supposed to be responsible for. Like doing homework is enough on top of that. They have to be checking portals on a regular basis and this, that, and the expectation is different.
Hunter:
I have a question. If you're a parent, you're having these questions, you're having a gut check, you're doing a reality check, might one of the steps for helping executive function-which is being able to sort of get the things done in the world that you need to get done- might one of the steps in that be- I'm thinking of simplicity parenting… Kim Payne and his whole regime of simplifying kids' lives. So simplifying screens, simplifying schedules, making it so there's less- if you got a kid on like who's doing TikTok or something like that, you know, so there's less things that are pulling the attention away constantly and fragmenting it. Might that be part of the process?
Seth Perler (19:14.038)
In my very strong opinion, 100%. Less is more. What is this life about Hunter? It's about our, our felt experiences. Well, what are the most important experiences life? Well, connection with other human beings that we care about, access service and, and doing work and doing things that matter and that are purposeful and meaningful to us, challenging ourselves. Like what, what are the most important things? Well, how, you know, I'm dealing with something we hundred and hour talking, in the pre-interview, you know, I, just had my seventh summit and I am like, it is coming off of running an event like that is I'm so like burnout and exhausted by the end of it. love it, but the, I, and now I'm just like playing, I had a physical medical type challenges here too. And like, I, it is so hard to quote, get caught up.
And there's research talking about subtraction. Like, as in we think that productivity is about like adding things to our lives or we like, we always want to add, but like subtraction, subtraction. And I'm pretty minimalist myself. I do have like my obsession with my guitars and stuff. And I'm cool with that, but in other areas, like I, I, I met someone, many years ago who said something I will never forget. And that was the more stuff we have, the more stuff we have to manage. Well, now that was like before the digital age. Now it's like the more stuff and digital stuff we have, the more stuff we have to manage. So yes, to me, yes, subtracting and really saying, what are the most important experiences I want my child to have and seeing how you can really simplify. Now, on the other hand, I also talk about exposure in terms of, want kids to have very rich exposure and enrichment activities and be exposed to lots of different courses, lots of different learning opportunities, lots of different experiences, lots of different sports, lots of different instruments, lots of different things. And to really have experiences in lots of that may sound like it's contradictory to what I'm saying, but it is not, is not- I mean, imagining it like if I'm an ADHD kid or I'm a neurodivergent kid and I feel different, I have trouble getting things done in the world, if I can find the thing that I actually am like super into and maybe I'm good at, right? Like that's gonna be a lifeline. Is that why? Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
Now in terms of that, they also still need to be able to do things they don't want to do. wait, right. So now where's the person with great executive function? That's not a problem. They, they will, do those things and get that, give them check off the list. But the kid that, that they want, for example, I was just talking to a senior in high school the other day who wants a driver's license. But doesn't have a driver's license. This is a more more common story I've heard over the years where kids get into college. They still don't have a driver's license. They want it, but they don't have the executive function to overcome the resistance to pulling it all together to making the appointment, going to the classes, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you want the outcome, the license, but to have to get it, you have to do things you don't want to do for me to have my own business and do what I want to do professionally and stuff. I have to do a lot of things I despise doing. Email has been my existence. They just, the harder I make it for people to email me, the more emails I get. want to kill my Facebook. I want to kill my Instagram. want to kill my everything. Like I don't like it. and all I do in my mind is I'm sort of like, I think of like retirement down the line in terms of like, how can I get rid of all this crap? That's like, like that's like, you know, my, that's like a goal of mine is like, I really don't like it. don't like a lot of those things ethically and like Instagram and Facebook and now they've impacted kids and families and stuff like that. but back to the point, like I do think kids are oversaturated and asking that one fundamental question. What experiences do, do I value? Do we value as a family that we want our child to have and are these things moving towards that? And one of the most common, there's probably four or five.
Big giant, giant like college tips that I have. And one of them is drop a class. Like I want college freshmen to make their amazing schedule. And then before school even starts, drop one of those classes and then go, if they have executive function challenges, I'm saying if they have those challenges, I've just seen the pattern so much. and then, you know, but that, that one class, if you imagine that getting them boring things done is really hard. Then dropping that one class, the space that that frees up to ease into getting used to the massive change. If they're going to college, that massive change, that space of one class is a lot at that transition in life. But same thing with, you know, juniors and seniors. A lot of times that's what I want them to do. Drop a class. Why are you doing this? Well, cause my counselor said I had your blah, blah. I really, really, really questioned those things very hard because that rolls off the tongue for kids, because I think they're so indoctrinated in thinking they have to do these things. And I would say 80 % of the time when we get really down to it with communicating with the school, we find out that that is not true. They can't drop the class. And if that's the case, I want them to drop it as soon as possible. And here's how I put it in that I started to die. I don't know that we are digressing, but I want to give people something to think about that you can also apply to other things. But think about this. You have 180 days in a school year. got a junior is really struggling with all their classes. They're failing three or four of them, let's say. And, um, and we find out that they in fact don't need a class and can drop it. And in a school year, there's 180 days. So that's 180 hours, let's say just going to the class. And then let's say that there is an hour of homework every night. Then that's 360 hours throughout that school year.
Added on to the three or four or five other classes that require 360 hours. Now I'm overestimating purposely that's, you know, but, but just to, just to do a thought experiment about this, take removing that one thing. Now we were talking about, we started this conversation talking about simplifying and simplicity, but imagine just removing one class like that, the spaciousness that, that there is. And the kid is probably still going to feel just as overwhelmed and just as busy even without that class. But there is a little bit more space for them to build the, as we started talking about earlier skills that their brain can have time and a little bit more space to build these skills that they need to manage this stuff.
So I'm definitely hearing a message of, if you're wondering, simplifying, making things simpler, creating a little more space to focus on what's important is really, is really a vital step. If you have some neurodiverse kids, some ADHD kids, I mean, this has got to be really hard, right? Because if you have a kid who has trouble getting things done, getting things done like homework or or organizing or their chores or whatever it is, they have to help them, right? In some ways, as they're growing up, they have to help them. They have to kind of step in and teach them things. But I imagine one of the big things parents struggle with is how much to step in and how much to let their kids figure out. And I was wondering, how do you guide families in helping to figure out this balance? I mean, that's a rhetorical question, you know, cause, cause I'm sure you hear that all the time. Do you hear that all the time?
Hunter: (27:36)
Well, I definitely hear the question about homework all the time. And I have maybe a bit of a controversial view on homework and that I think in general, know, kind of barring, I'm not expert on ADHD or neurodiversity, right? Like barring that in general, sort of the baseline should be that homework is kids' problem, right? Hopefully you have a school that is not giving homework at kindergarten, which is so inane, it drives me crazy, you know, through fourth grade, right? Like just some things, maybe the parent is creating some, helping to create some space around homework or some habits, but homework is the kid's problem. And actually if a kid messes up on homework and fails in it, like that's good for them to learn that lesson when they are still young and under their parents' roof. And it really doesn't matter because they're only in eighth grade, right? Like they can, it's not like they've been propped up by their parents till they're 18 and then they go to college and then they're like, my God, I can't do it without any support, right? Like we need to let it be their problem and we are facilitators and coaches to help them organize their lives a bit. But I don't know that's my point of view for maybe a neurotypical kid. No, I mean, that's it. mean, so if you think about then you have a neurodiverse kid and maybe a parent's like, with my other kid, can let it be there. You know, I can, I can let them do these things and they can make mistakes and then they can figure it out. How much do they step in and let kids figure out for a kid who's who needs really needs help. Okay.
Seth Perler:
Okay. So that's a really good question. And so when we were starting, yeah, this, this part of the conversation, I, what I was thinking is that you and you and I probably hear some different versions of this question, like all the time, but the way that I hear it from parents is this is like, can be an, can be in homework, but it can be in anything. where a parent and I usually work with middle high school college, but where a parent is like, how do I know when I'm doing too much for them? But that can be socially that can be academically that can be all kinds of- but that's sort of what I hear you asking as like the sort of path the general pattern that I hear over and over and over and over is how do I know when I'm doing too much? How do I know when I'm not doing enough? How do I know when I'm doing just right? So I'm gonna approach it from that perspective then maybe we can dive into like a homework example after that but Here's what I talk about.
So I talk about play in the gray: the way that I look at it is you have black and white Right. On one side you have like doing way too much for your kid. You're enabling them. You're not helping them. You're trying to help, but you're helping so much that you're not helping. You're depriving them of the opportunity of learning and growing and developing their own skills. So that is unhealthy. That is dysfunctional. That comes from a place of love, comes from a place of wanting to help, but it ends up being rescuing and not in a good rescuing way. So there's that, that, that pole polar end of the spectrum. And then there's the opposite end of the spectrum, not doing enough saying you figure it out, kiddo saying, pick yourself up by your bootstraps saying, know, you know, I, uh, you know, I, I can't help you or just, you know, um, let's say in extreme example where parents just really neglectful and they're just not involved and they're just not noticing what's going on with their kiddo. And they're just out of touch and things like this. let's say there's these two really far extremes, right?
And then there's the gray and the gray is, in the middle there. And in order for anybody, you, Hunter, me, Seth, and or for you, the listener in order for any of us to grow in any area of our life that we want to grow and progress in, we have to get uncomfortable. If I want to get good at a new song on guitar and learn something, you know, the solo to it or something, and I've never played it before. Well, I'm not going to get it right away. And if I really want to get this, I am going to have to get uncomfortable. I'm going to have to spend time practicing, relistening, going over and over it, doing the stuff that's not fun until I get to the point where I'm good enough at it, that it's fun and it's getting easier and it starts solidifying and yada yada. I have to get uncomfortable. But if I get too uncomfortable, I'm going to give up. I'm going to want to vomit. If you're like, Seth, do you need to practice this much every day? And I'm like, I got other stuff going on in my life. I am not willing to do that. Or I don't have time or stop stressing me out or whatever. And then, or I push myself too much and you know, the, like I had a back injury earlier this year, you know, like that I, if I push it too much, I'm going to regress right now and have more pain.
But the point is, is that there's a gray area and in that gray area, it is where our child or ourselves, but we are, we are not, we're in the middle between those two zones. We're in, we're in a place where we are pushed past our comfort zone. Cause if we're not pushed back to the start comfort zone, we're stagnated. We're not growing. We're not progressing, but not too far because if it goes too far, then that's not helpful. So that is really hard to do. Now that is easier for me to do with the students I work with or for a teacher to do with the students that work with you put the parent in the mix and all of a sudden the kid has a toolbox full of how to push their parents buttons. Right. And they have been working on that for a long time. And so it is, I, I acknowledge that the gray area for parents is that zone of finding that sweet spot is harder for parents than it is for somebody who isn't you that's working with your kid. However, our job, or I would argue like the parents job, our job as adults is to find where that gray zone is and to, and then what I said before, to play in the gray. That's where the magic happens to find that. And we, as the adults gets us regulated, we have our buttons push, but we have buttons to be pushed. So that's our own deep inner work. But we have, you know, this stuff to work on ourselves, but as we are learning more of our own, emotional regulation tools, as we are unpacking some of the dysfunction we grew up with, as we're changing our perceptions and parenting is hard. There's no instruction book is in by the time you figure something out about your kid. They're a different kid. And by the time you figure that thing out, they're a different kid. And by the time you have a second kid and you're like, I'm going to do this with the second kid. And then you're like, that stuff doesn't work. And it worked with this. So it is legitimately hard and legitimately amazing. And the you've got this, these are skills as well. Playing in the gray is a skill set or a multitude of skill sets.
So going back to the back where we started is like, how do you know when you're doing too much and when you're not doing enough? part of that is a gut check, but part of that is the reality check, you know? and I think that one of the, easiest and least maybe intuitive ways to do this is to ask your kid and then to really listen and then to listen some more and then to listen some more and to yourself finally starting to respond. By your tongue again. but really asking over and over, know, Hey kiddo, what's too much, what's too little. Why tell me more. really want to understand like when we're coming from a really genuine place of curiosity and openness and wonder. We start to get those magic answers from our kids that really give us the insights that we need. Now there might be a lot of unlearning we need to do as the adult in terms of being able to hold space for that, because we've had whatever, dysfunctional patterns we've had for however long that are really can be really hard to unwind, but there's no shame in that. We've all got it. Stan Tatkin says everybody is difficult, like cool. Now let's move on. And so we all have this dysfunctional stuff to unravel. And when we can look at it, even with some levity and playfulness and some, curiosity, even about that, then we can get closer and closer to having more skillfulness around curiosity with our kids and wonderment and, and holding that space where they're really able to give us really meaningful responses that really help us help them.
Hunter (36:37)
Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama Podcast right after this break.
Which is mindfulness: just what you're describing. You know, it's funny, actually, I can really relate to what you're saying enormously because I have a kid who has a chronic pain issue. so the idea of, you know, she has invisible pain that I can't see, you know, and, and, to, to like, how much, how much do we step in as a family and how much do we make sure that she gets done on her own? Because she's got to be an adult living on her own. You know, that's been a question that we've had to deal with. So it's actually very similar, whereas like we've had to scaffold and I've had to, you know, listen and trust my kid when she's telling me what's happening and to question my programming. That's like, you know, oh, is your kid just being lazy or is your kid just, you know, just taking advantage of you or that kind of stuff, you know, and it's, it is in the messy middle. It's in the gray.
Seth Perler:
It is and it isn't meaning that we do this messy work. And when we start getting wins and man, when I see families start turning corners, they start turning big corners and, there can be a lot of growth very fast, but yeah, it's, it's hard. And then it's also, it's not that hard. Like you mentioned mindfulness. Have you read Thich Nhat Hanh? I forgot. Did we ever talk about that?
Hunter:
Yeah, I've actually, yeah, I've gone on retreat and on community many times and I've actually had got to see him in person many, times. Went on retreat with him.
Seth Perler (40:19)
I did have the privilege once, but the first mindfulness book I ever read was the “Miracle of Mindfulness”.
Hunter:
The first mindfulness book I ever read was “Being Peace” by Thich Nhat Hanh. That's so funny. And I remember- it was early on in the book, the “Washing the Dishes” little chapter. I don't know if you remember that,
Seth:
Yeah. And how game changing something like that, like that, for those of you who haven't read it, I really encourage you to read it. but it's easy and it's not easy. Like meditation. And I'm not talking about going for a walk and being meditative. I'm talking about actually sitting with what is with your- or I'll speak for myself, my anxiety, my depression, my sadness, my anger, my peace of mind, my joy, my wonderment, my thoughts, my emotions, my physical sensations, my feelings. Sit with it and just notice it with curiosity and watch it and just sit still and be in stillness and notice it without judgment. On the one hand, the hardest thing about it is sitting your butt down. Now, is it hard to continue staying sitting for a few minutes? Yeah. It's not as hard as we often make anyhow. It's really hard in this also really not like to sit doesn't seem like that hard of a thing to do. but to make a habit of that, you know, once we can get something like that, that can be such a game changer. The more mindful we are. And that's what mindfulness practice does. It helps us be more intentional about what we say, what we think, what we do and how we parent, how we support kids. The more mindfulness we have around that, the more helpful we can be. And so on the, on the one end, yeah, this stuff is hard. It's messing on the other hand, like some of it, it seems so hard, but it's like, when we're doing that, everything gets easier. When we're doing certain things, you know, doing our own deeper inner work, which is really hard. Everything gets easier. You know, there's a paradox and all this stuff.
Hunter:
Yeah, we have resistance to it, but if we can dive into some things that we had this resistance to, it can change everything. Yeah, being able to sit in stillness, I think, directly translates to parenting so much because that gives you- I remember thinking like, “how do you pause?” You pause by practicing stopping. You pause by practicing pausing, right? By being able to- and then that directly translates to being in a difficult moment with your kid where you're like, “what do I do here? I'm in the messy middle. I'm in the gray and I don't know what to do. Let me just stop”. And I got to feel it. And then that directly translates into us being able to access the slower parts of our brain and getting out of the reactive parts of our brain and questioning, “You know what? Let me be curious: what is really going on here? This discomfort I feel with this situation: is it warranted? Is it true?” We can ask all these questions. “Are you sure”? Actually, that is a piece of calligraphy we bought at the Blue Cliff Monastery at our last family retreat- was a wonderful piece of calligraphy that says, “Are you sure”? and we have it up in our stairwell and it's so helpful to ask that question. But yeah, it directly, directly translates. Absolutely.
Seth Perler:
Yeah, it reminds me- what was that book before? Something. Is it true? gosh. Anyhow, you read, “Thinking Fast and Slow”? You'd probably like it. It's dense.
Hunter (44:25)
No, I'm gonna take a note. Tme goes by so fast when I talk to you, Seth. You just wrapped up your 2025 Executive Function Summit- TFOS- and you heard from a bunch of experts. I had the privilege of being there. What stood out to you this year that parents really need to know?
Seth Perler:
Every year there are themes that sort of organically pop up. Think the word of the year for me this year was “Curiosity”. And one way or another, that was the theme that seemed to come up a lot. I think it's an amazing, we've talked about it a little bit here today, but it's an amazing concept to really internalize and spend some time with an adult in a kid's life, how we are showing up with curiosity for our kids, how we're showing up with curiosity for ourselves, which has a lot to with self-compassion, but having a curiosity mindset and the pause that you mentioned, you know, we are so quick to react to things and building a bigger pause button allows, I think goes hand hand, I guess, with curiosity. that was a big one this year. I think that there was a, uh, a heaviness this year in the, in some of the tone. think that, um, there's a lot going on in the world that's very heavy and our, uh, the Mets come up as a lot, you know, how our kids are dealing with a lot of the heaviness and tension and divisiveness and all of these things in the world that are happening. So, that was a big theme and yeah, that's a tough one too. I don't know how to address that right here in a short period of time, but I think again, it goes back to a lot of the curiosity and holding space for our kids and being the more we're doing our inner work and being that safe place for our kids that they, that we have the skillfulness as the adult to navigate the relationship so that they feel emotionally safe with us to be able to share the things that we hope that they'll share with us so that we can be helpful to them. So keeping those doors open. so that was also a pretty big one.
Have you seen some in the interviews that you've been doing? We talk about a lot of different topics, but I think I agree with you like that piece about being the steady, stable base, right? Like practicing to be that and to listen to for our kids like that, I think is really the number one thing for, know, whatever challenges your kids have and whatever range, you know, that practice of not always necessarily going and making it, know, that of taking that portion of your time and intention and energy to yourself for your kids. So you can be that steadiness. So you can be that stability. So you can have that pause and that ability to do that with you. You know, it means carving out a portion of your life resources for yourself to establish that and I think that's so important.
Hunter (48:10)
Yeah. Seth, there's so much more we could talk about. I really enjoy talking to you. Thank you so much. Where do you want to direct people to if they want to find out more about what you do?
Seth (48:29)
The soon-to-be-destroyed internet, but it'll all weird AI fakes and we won't be able to trust anything. This is my dark vision.
Hunter (49:20)
Well, thank you so much. really enjoy talking to you. I really enjoy your perspective. For people who want more, go to episode #386. Seth tells his story a little bit more about how he got into this. Makes you feel hopeful for your own neurodiverse kid. You'll be like, “look at this amazing guy!” So anyway, thank you, Seth, for coming on. It's been a pleasure.
Wow, thinking about all these things, parenting neurodiverse kids can really feel exhausting. So I hope that what Seth offered in this episode can make a difference for you. And if it does, let me know. I'm at @MindfulMamaMentor on the socials. I hope this episode helped you and in your neurodiverse kid a little bit more this week and just so you also know, you're not alone and maybe you're exhausted, but tomorrow's a new day. Tomorrow's a new day. You can always, always begin anew. That's what I say. And it's true. You can always, always begin anew. So I thank you for listening this week and I will be back soon to talk to you next week. We are coming up the end of the year. We're going to hear “the Best Of” soon and then we're gonna be starting a brand new year at the Mindful Mama Podcast so make sure you're subscribed so much good stuff coming up. Wishing you a lovely season and wishing you all the best and renewals and all that good stuff and I will talk to you real soon. Namaste
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