Michelle Grosser is an attorney, pastor, Nervous System Expert, Certified Master Life Coach, and host of The Alive & Well Podcast. Through somatic and neuroscience-based modalities, she coaches women through discovering what’s beneath their triggers and emotions, so they can begin their healing journey and find peace in the present.
550: Modeling Regulation & Managing Overwhelm
Michelle Grosser
In this Mindful Mama Podcast episode, Hunter Clarke-Fields talks with Michelle Grosser—mom, lawyer, and nervous system educator—about her path from burnout to balance. They discuss the pressures that fuel parental stress, the value of accepting limits, and how nervous system regulation helps both parents and kids. Michelle shares simple tools to manage overwhelm, co-regulate during tough moments, and support kids through big emotions. It’s a grounding, practical conversation about building resilience and creating systems that truly support parents.
Ep 550- Grosser
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*This is an auto-generated transcript*
Michelle Grosser (00:00)
It's crucial because your nervous system is running everything. Right? Like the research shows that, I mean, up to 95 to 98 % of everything that we do every day. So that means every thought we think and every word we speak and everything we do, right? Every behavior we take on is driven by our subconscious, which is ultimately the patterning of our nervous system.
Hunter (00:29)
You're listening to the Mindful Mama Podcast, episode #550. Today we're talking about modeling, regulation, and managing overwhelm with Michelle Grosser.
Welcome to the Mindful Mama Podcast. Here it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Mama, we know that you cannot give what you do not have. And when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clarke-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting Course and Teacher Training, and I'm the author of the international bestseller, “Raising Good Humans”, “Raising Good Humans Every Day”, and the “Raising Good Humans Guided Journal”.
Hi, welcome back to the podcast. Welcome, welcome. I'm so glad you're here. I am so, so, so happy to welcome you if you're new as well. So this is an awesome episode. I'm going to be talking to Michelle Grosser, an attorney, a pastor, a nervous system expert, certified life coach, and host of the Alive and Well podcast. So we're going to talk about her path from burnout to balance. We're going to talk about the pressures that fuel stress, the value of accepting limits, how nervous system regulation helps you and your kids, and then simple tools to do that and to manage overwhelm. We're going to talk about co-regulation, letting kids safely feel big emotions and building systems that really support you. So there is so much in this episode. I know you're going to get a lot out of it. So make sure you listen to the end.
And I look forward to hearing your feedback and hearing what you think. Before we dive in, I want to remind you that “Raising Good Humans” has sold over 750,000 copies worldwide and is the number one best gift book ever for parents. So if you have a parent in your life and you don't know if they have it yet, get your copy of “Raising Good Humans”. You can pair it with the “Raising Good Humans Guided Journal” and give it to your friends today. You can share the podcast and talk to them about it. So yeah, just my little plug for raising humans. And now join me at the table as I talk to Michelle Grosser:
It's Hunter Clarke-Fields, author of “Raising Good Humans”. If you've ever thought, “wish I could help other parents the way I've been helped!”, this is for you. The Mindful Parenting Teacher Certification Program is now open for enrollment. You'll deepen your mindfulness, learn to lead powerful parenting groups, and join a supportive heart-centered community. And right now, you can save $500 with our early bird discount through July 15th. Ready to make a difference? Visit MindfulParentingCourse.com/teach.
Hunter (03:44)
Michelle, thank you so much for coming on the Mindful Mama podcast.
Michelle Grosser:
my goodness, thank you so much for having me. It's good to be here.
Hunter:
Yeah. I have recently had a lovely conversation on Michelle's Calm Mom podcast. And we have a lot of wonderful overlap, is great. So I want to get your perspective on some things that I feel passionately about. But I'd love to kind of dive into where you started with this. You described that you were feeling like a hot mess. were juggling a legal career, teaching in a family life. Can you take us back to that moment and what it felt like to be in that place of overwhelm?
Michelle Grosser Yeah. I mean, I think I had probably been running patterns that led to where I ended up for a long time, probably since like middle school or high school even. But I had my first daughter eight years ago and then 16 months later I had my second daughter. And at that time I was, I was running a busy law practice in downtown Miami. was a law professor in the evenings, an adjunct professor. And then, you know, trying to like navigate postpartum life with two young kids and diapers. felt like I was, yeah, I think back now I'm like, my gosh. And I feel like I've just been blessed with this kind of like amnesia even about the time to like be able to get through it. but it was, it felt like I was on the hot mess express every day. And I just remember, you know, I was obviously equipped to do a lot of things at once.
And I remember in that season, the smallest things just feeling so overwhelming, right? Waking up and already feeling like I was behind before the day even started. Feeling wired, but tired all the time. I remember a moment with my second, like nursing her at, I don't know, two, three in the morning and just like tearing up because I'm like, I am never alone anymore. And I've never felt so lonely, you know, like during those early years, it can be really tough. So I think a lot of it was just pushing through and pushing through and pushing through until my body was like, girl, you're out of gas, you're done. And then just kind of shut me down and brought me to my knees and, you know, in a beautiful way, forced me to learn how to get off the hot mess express. I'm grateful for that. But yeah, it's tough.
Hunter:
Well, it's interesting because your story is so familiar, right? To a lot of working parents, like it's so familiar. And recently we had on, we had on Abigail Leonard who wrote the book, “Four Mothers”, just talking about how comparing four mothers from USA, Finland, Kenya, and Japan and their experiences. And of course the USA is the only one, of course out of any of these, that doesn't have any kind of paid parental leave. And so it's so interesting to hear you describe your story because it's your story, it's so individual. Yet at the same time, there's all this like collective stuff that really feeds into this. It's like policies and stuff that make it so that you feel the overwhelming burden for everything. Whereas in a different situation, if you had more support, if you had more structures and policies and things like that to support you. It may not have been that way.
Michelle Grosser (07:28)
Yeah, 100%. And I think, you when I look back, I'm like, I did. And again, I think this is a cultural thing for us here, especially, you know, Western cultures. Like I did all of the things you're supposed to do before you have a baby, right? Took the classes, read the books, decorated the nursery, and then brought this child home and realized how willfully unprepared I actually was, right? On a much larger scale. And at the time, I mean, I'm running my own law practice. I could have had the opportunity, I did have the opportunity to put better systems and structures in place to support myself in postpartum. But there's just something about how we've been wired and taught where I was like, I've got this, I can do this. I'll take a couple of weeks off, but then I can bring the baby with me to the office and I can take depositions on Zoom while I'm nursing. then I'm like, after looking back, like, wow, just such a fundamental disconnect between what I thought I was capable of because of the things I'd seen or heard or what I was trying to prove and then my actual limitations. It's crazy.
Hunter:
I mean, just to stay on this for a moment, if you, thinking back to that crazy time, if you could have waved a magic wand for yourself or somebody else's in the future, what would you put in place to give someone like that a better, steadier, safer, more comfortable start into motherhood?
Michelle Grosser:
Well, I think I would have had or wanted to have a much better understanding of attachment theory because I think I didn't really even understand or appreciate how much my baby would need to be and want to be with me and me with them, right? In this postpartum time and then create the space for that to happen and for me to be present and not feel guilty about having a really hard time being where my feet are in any given moment. And then I think I would have learned how to ask for help. I think that's something that a lot of us struggle with. certainly did. I still do, but especially back then. a lot of it came down to, think, two things. One, worthiness issue, right, on a whole. And then I think second, you what was I trying to prove? And to whom was I trying to prove it? And really just being honest with myself. But I just didn't have the awareness back then. just didn't, I hadn't really done a lot of this kind of personal development work and I was just so unaware.
Hunter:
Yeah, I mean, you've talked about that. You've made a series of conscious decisions to kind of quit certain mindsets and habits, perfectionism, toxic beliefs, and overextending yourself. So how did you come to that? Obviously it was kind of the like, we're hitting a wall of exhaustion and energy as soon. But what was the hardest thing to let go?
Michelle Grosser:
Yeah, I think, you know, I think it wasn't even so much about letting go as it was about embracing reality. And part of the reality in that moment that I really, you know, I think I was avoiding it for so long and then I actually kind of did a 180 and now have come to not only acknowledge it, but actually embrace and love it is just my limitations, right? Like I am not an unlimited. There are parts of me that are unlimited, right? I have an unlimited capacity to create or to love or to experience joy. And there are parts of me that have very definite, limited bandwidths around my time and my energy and my ability to give attention and focus and my mental load and all of these different things. And when I started to really accept that and grow an awareness of that and then put boundaries around my limitations and celebrate them and be like, hey, it's a good thing that I can't function off of five hours sleep. I need eight or nine hours, right? And I'm going to put boundaries around that or whatever it was. You know, for me, that made a really big difference.
Hunter (11:44)
Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break.
Hunter (13:52)
Yeah, I think we're kind of taught that we can and should do it all, I guess. I mean, I imagine you were like this very high achieving kid that did all the things. I mean, you had your own law practice, so you got the good grades. You did all the things. You knew how to get the A. Sometimes that's how I describe myself. I knew how to get the A. And then you get to parenting and you're like, oh, like, class. Just like more, like just studying harder is not gonna make me win this doesn't cut it anymore. what's so frustrating is those patterns run so deep, right? And then you like hit the end of where they're actually useful. And it is, it's an awakening.
Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, this is an endemic in our society, in US society particularly, but I think a lot of people, a lot of moms, we feel like you have no choice but to do it all. what, take us back to your story. You're burning out, you're hitting the wall. What did you do to make a change and follow through with that?
Michelle Grosser:
I think part of it when I look back is that I can hear myself and I remember probably daily telling anyone who would listen how overwhelmed I was, right? And every time that I said that, I was like giving all my power away. was just like, I'm so overwhelmed. I so much to do. There's not enough time. I'm so overwhelmed. And something that I started to do is that when I felt that coming on, instead of just, you know, screaming that I'm overwhelmed, to allow myself to sit down and get really specific about what it was that was actually overwhelming me. And when I did that, right, I kind of took my power back because I brought it down to a place where I'm like, okay, I can actually do something about this. And that was so helpful for me. And then I think on a bigger scale is that there is this tension, I think, when we're feeling that way, like we know something has to change, but we feel stuck and we don't know if we can or there's this tension between this radical accountability, I think, and a really deep surrender all at the same time. Right? It's like no one else is going to change this for me. No one else is going to change my mindset or no one else is going to change what my pace, the pace of my day looks like or how much I'm working or who's making dinner for my kids. Like that's all on me. And can I find the courage to change and then just surrender to how that looks, right? Can I trust that I'm resourced enough or have enough resources or resourceful enough to be able to adjust to however that looks if I can have the courage to kind of make the leap into the change that I'm seeing. But it is a tension.
Hunter:
Yeah, I mean, you're talking about like, A, like, I have to make a change and B, I have to accept my life in this moment. A lot of moments in life that are like that, I think, where you're like, this really has to change. And you have to kind of hold that change in your mind's eye. Maybe it's your North Star. And then when you have a change point, you can do it. But in the meantime, you have to, in order to just not be in complete tension, you have to accept where you are. guess that's what I'm hearing you say. okay. So you talk about setting up systems in your home that freed you of your time and energy. Can you give us an example of any kind of small but transformative change that made a big difference?
Michelle Grosser:
Yeah. Yeah. I think over, I mean, I guess eight years now since having my first daughter, there's been a lot of things that I've put into place that have helped. What's coming to mind? Okay. So I'll give you one, guess, for time and for energy. One for time. And I started doing this about five or six years ago and it's just helped me so much. I stopped folding my kids' clothes. Oh, I didn't either. And it seems, right? You don't either. Okay. I'm not alone. I was thinking about this and I'm like, there something in there that I'm enabling and not chief? No, I stopped folding their clothes because they have this dresser and I would take the time to fold all their little underwear and all their little shirts and all their little shorts and put them neatly and then they go get dressed and they're just going through it like raccoons through garbage and picking stuff out, throwing it in and I would get so frustrated. And then I'm like, why am I doing this? They helped me fold the kitchen towels and the bathroom towels, like they're learning how to fold laundry and they know the process and putting things away. like, this is my, this is my problem. And I've stopped. just take their clean clothes and I just take it from the dryer and I put it in the drawer it goes in, not folded. and it has saved me so much time and probably even more than that frustration and annoyance, which takes up just as much space, I think. So I'm glad to hear you do that too.
Hunter:
That's great. Let me add to that because your kids are getting to the age, They're like, you said eight and six? When my girls were nine, I just taught them how to do laundry all together. And I haven't touched their laundry since then, except occasionally kind of doing some things. So it is completely their thing, which is good, because our kids need to learn life skills, right? They need to be in the habit of being able to do things like make food and do laundry and, you know, whatever, like gas up a car, all those things. anyway, you got one per year and then you're free from one child's laundry.
Michelle Grosser:
It's a win. I can't wait. That's so good. And then I guess an energy one that's really helped too, and I've been using this more lately, but it probably would have helped a lot when my kids were younger too, is I've been asking myself how I can say yes to them more. Right? Because I think so often when my initial gut reaction is to just say, no, right, mom, can I have a treat? Mom, can I do this? Whatever it is. And it's like, no, you can't. No, you can't. I've been trying to catch myself before I say that and kind of challenge myself like, hey, how can you say yes to them in this moment, right? Yes, you can, but we'll do it after dinner. Or yes, you can, but go do this first and then you can. Or just responding, I think, with a yes instead of a no for me and my kids has saved me so much energy in avoiding, I think, power struggles and getting us to a place where like, yeah, I would love to say yes to that. And here's what will have to get done first. And it's really worked.
Hunter (20:44)
I like that. It's kind of like a little parenting jiu-jitsu move, you know, like where you're like taking the energy and you're not blocking it, but you're like making it flow in the direction, but you're- it's like a Jedi mind trick for mine. I love that. yes, yes, you can. And don't fold your kids on. I know there's some parents who are going to be really like, both find that. And but both of these things are part of what you talked about, which I appreciate. And of course, we've talked about this on your podcast, and I think it's so important. But the idea of prioritizing the state of your nervous system. I, of course, love, love, love this idea, but from in your own words, Michelle, why is this so crucial? And what are some signs that a parent's nervous system is dysregulated?
Michelle Grosser:
Yeah, yeah. It's crucial because your nervous system is running everything. Right? Like the research shows that, I mean, up to 95 to 98 % of everything that we do every day. So that means every thought we think and every word we speak and everything we do, right? Every behavior we take on is driven by our subconscious, which is ultimately the patterning of our nervous system. So having a nervous system that can respond instead of react. Having a nervous system that can actually be patient and not feel like they're rushing all the time. Having a nervous system that can be present and engaged. Having a nervous system that can be creative and problem solving in our discipline or teaching our kids. All of these things require us to have the ability to have a quite flexible and resilient nervous system, which means that we can experience the different states of our nervous system, the ups and the downs when we need to, and that we have the ability to bring ourselves back to that baseline, right? That place where we have access to all of our tools that make us really effective and loving and present parents. So there are so many, you know, the hacks. We've tried them. We've read the books, we've listened to the podcast, we have the scripts, like all these things, and those are awesome. And if we are not regulated in our nervous system, we'll find that we're just frustrated, right? Because we know the things and we can't put them into practice because ultimately our nervous system is running the show, not us.
Hunter (23:22)
Yeah, I know. It was so frustrating. I remember being in a place of like, I know now that I should have responded to my kid this way. Yeah. Yet I couldn't because I was dysregulated, right? Like, and that's so frustrating because you're like, knew what I should have I just say the thing. You can't because your nervous system is just hijacking your body and your brain. So it has to be, has to be, has to be number one. Yeah. It's so important. Then what are some of the signs that a parent who may not be so tuned into what's happening with their nervous system that they, that system is dysregulated for them?
Michelle Grosser:
Yeah, so I think before we're even aware of the outward signs, I think it's really important for us to become aware of the inward signs, right? What are our somatic cues? How does our body tell us that we're starting to get activated before we're in full blown, don't know, Hulk mode or shut down or whatever it feels like in the moment? You know, like when we're kids, we're taught we have five senses. We actually have more than five senses, right? We have a sense called interoception, which is actually the sensations of our body. And when we can start growing an awareness of like how our body communicates, okay, we're starting to get frustrated here, we're starting to get annoyed, we're starting to get angry, we're starting to get anxious. If we can notice when our body starts to tell us that, then we can actually use the tools that we have to help us come back to regulate a regulated state before we're, before we feel like we're, you know, so far gone. noticing your somatic cues. I know for me, when I'm starting to feel stressed or overwhelmed or you know, a dysregulated state. The first thing that happens is that my jaw clenches, right? My tongue is pressed to the roof of my mouth. I wake up, my jaw just kind of feels sore. have tension in my shoulders and my neck, and I kind of like wear them up by my ears all day long, and I'm just going about it. I'll start to feel like a tightness in my stomach, right? Like kind of like a pit. I don't really have much of an appetite.
Even my tone of voice will change. Like when I'm starting to get really frustrated with my kids, I'll like, start speaking really slowly. Put your shoes on." Right? Like, I can feel all of that happening. And we all have somatic cues. They're different. So just starting to notice what yours are. For me, that's my little red flag, like, okay, Michelle, you need to regulate. Like, you got to go use the tools that you have to bring yourself to a place before you snap or check out or what have you. So that's first. And then I think some cues that we are dysregulated are ways that it shows up. It depends on which circuit of our nervous system we're operating in. So if we're in the fight or flight response, our sympathetic nervous system, that might look like feeling really edgy and irritable and kind of snappy, know, those moments where everything kind of feels annoying and no one seems to be helping and we're just, you know, we can lose it in an instant. Someone looks at us sideways and we're snapping at them. Maybe it's a lot of anxiety. Maybe you're feeling like you're stuck in this scarcity mindset where there's not enough help and there's not enough time and there's too much to do and it's really overwhelming. are all signs. We're busy all the time. Like those are all signs we're in our fight or flight response. And then on the other end of the spectrum, when we're in a freeze response, what we call a dorsal vagal collapse in that state, you know, there's been so much going on that our body's best response in that moment is just to kind of tap out, right? We're just going to check out.
So when we're in that state, we might notice that we're really zoning out a lot, spacing out. We're just staring off into space. Maybe our kids are telling us something and then this has happened to me. They're like, mom, mom. I'm like, yeah, what were you saying? you say that again? I was somewhere else. We can scroll mindlessly, right? We can drive home from work at the end of the day and we don't even, we pull into our driveway. We don't even remember how we got there. We were gone the kind of the whole drive. We're procrastinating a lot. We feel burnt out or we're maybe we are getting eight hours of sleep, but we're still tired when we wake up in the morning. Those are symptoms that we're in a freeze response. So noticing what's going on in my body that's queuing me that I'm becoming dysregulated. And when I'm there, what does that kind of look like? How does it feel? Right? What do I say? What do I think? What do I do? And then being able to use the tools that we have to bring us back to a place of presence.
Hunter:
Yeah, it's so important to just recognize this, not as like, is life, the way life always is as a parent, right? Yeah. This is dysregulation, and this is a sign that you may not be able to access your whole brain, that you may not be able to respond in the ways you want to respond, that doing more, reading another book, listening to other podcasts may not be helpful at this time, but you may need something else. I know what I do. mean, for me, this regulation as like a highly sensitive person, seeing how dysregulated early motherhood brought me, know, how it really dysregulated me early motherhood and just the intensity of it, et cetera. And just seeing that, okay, I really need to do the things I need to do to regulate myself. you know, sorry kiddo, I know you don't love childcare, but you're going to the YMCA childcare while I work out and I'm making my time for my mindfulness practice. I'm doing a little bit of yoga here and there, releasing tension, those things. What do you do to get yourself regulated?
Michelle Grosser:
So I have, you know, I guess what I would call like foundational things that I try to incorporate every day just to help my nervous system be more resilient, right? Yes, I got frustrated, but I'm able to come back a lot more quickly than I would otherwise, right? So these are things that I try to do every day. And then I also have in the moment things, right? When that red flag is waving like Michelle, you're getting close. There are things that I can do in that moment that take 90 seconds, two minutes that can help me come back.
So the three things ultimately that I try to do every day that really help support the health of my nervous system and grow my resilience, I try to move my body every day. I was like, there's no way around it. If you guys are listening, movement is the number one most efficient way to close that stress cycle and get us back to our baseline, right? Get us back to a regulated state. We've got to move our body. I'm not talking about going to CrossFit. I'm not talking about this really long, like high intensity workout. I'm talking about like, can you get outside and go for a 20 minute walk every day? Right? Can you not have lunch at your desk and sit on the floor and do some Pilates or yoga and stretch? Like you just, you just can't get around it. Movement is so powerful in helping us stay regulated. Yeah. And if you think about it, I mean, even just fight or flight, the term, right? When we're in fight or flight, every cell in our being is wired for movement. We want to run.
Hunter (30:24)
Yes, that's true. So sometimes when we first go to trying to be still, it feels really uncomfortable because we're going against every impulse in our body. Go walk and then meditate. And I promise you, you're going to have a different experience, right? Let that energy discharge and then bring in something that feels really soothing. All of yoga were practices that were developed to make our bodies more comfortable in meditation. It's brilliant. Yeah, this is not something new that we're discovering. This is ancient. Yeah, so the first thing is movement. The second thing is stillness, right? And this is a lot of what you teach our brain and our body require moments of stillness. cannot be going from the moment that we wake up until the moment that we go to sleep at night. It's so detrimental to the function of our brain. We don't have time to clean our brain. don't have time to, you know, or our brain doesn't have time to organize things. There's not time to be creative. So really finding creative ways to bring in stillness. You talked about you used to go on your walks without your headphones and that was like an early form of mindfulness for you. So many opportunities in our day for that, right? Can you sit in the carpool lane without listening to a podcast or an audio book?
Michelle Grosser (31:49)
Can you go for a walk without your phone? Can you fold laundry just in silence instead of having a show on in the background? Meditation practice, absolutely. So that's the second thing. And then the third big picture thing that I try to incorporate every day is play. Play is one of the greatest regulators of our nervous system. It signals safety, which is what our body ultimately needs to come out of fight, flight, or freeze. And when I say play, it could be playing with your kids, but it's really the things that you do that excite you, that you could do and you lose track time of, right? That you do for the sake of pleasure instead of some end, right? Maybe it's playing an instrument or skateboarding or just going to the beach or journaling or I don't know what. But man, getting 10, 15 minutes of that a day and something that doesn't feel overwhelming enough to go out and buy this whole thing, but like just keeping it simple, but doing things that light you up every day is a powerful regulation practice.
Hunter (32:54)
Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break.
Hunter (34:43)
Garden, go plant some flowers or yeah, whatever that is. I love that movement, stillness and play. And I love that these are not, these are things that we do just for you, right? Like as your listener is not something you do in service of somebody else or in somebody, you know, in someone else in your family, doing things just for you, ultimately in service of everybody in your life. But just for you. And it's interesting, know, those stillness things, like they require us to kind of get over a hump of discomfort, right? I don't know. think of that like as my, sometimes I think about like my meditation practice like is what gives me then permission to like listen to podcasts while I get ready because I've earned this. I've had my vegetables right and now I can have my junk- it helps. You just, you're nutrition at some point. yeah, and these are things that help us stay grounded when it's inevitably, I think when we can have things like exercise, right? It can be painful to do squats, right? In a way that your muscle tension is building and things like that, but that ultimately makes you feel good, right? Like sitting still can be feel uncomfortable. feel, know, I would rather be distracted. I feel fidgety, right? And but it ultimately makes us sort of feel good and then play there can be like a, you know, inertia about actually doing that. I was thinking about that with my sketchbook last night, like I've been having some inertia about sketching in my sketchbook because my technical skill has like dropped out because I've been out of practice, but then it felt so good to do this little drawing of a teacup last night. I love that. Anyway, these are so beautiful. I love them. Okay, but let's talk about when they help you, when the beep hits the fan. When it gets real, right? It's a roller coaster. It's an emotional roller coaster.
So you talk about regulation and co-regulation, right? We know that we inter-are with our children that they, we unfortunately feel a lot of the things we feel, they feel what we feel. We know that we're modeling for them all the time, right? So let's think about some of those high stress moments. What are some practical ways that we can model emotional regulation for our children? Like we're practicing it daily. And then we get to this moment. What do we do?
Michelle Grosser:
I think when it comes to our emotions in particular, think letting them witness and see us experience the full spectrum of emotions can be such a powerful teacher in and of itself. And I say that, especially for the uncomfortable emotions, like letting them see us be really sad or really disappointed or see us cry or see us be angry about something. How can we let them in on that in a way that is healthy and productive I think, for them as kids, right? So depending on how old they are. And I think, you know, I've had this happen where my kids will walk in and I'm crying about something. And my instinct is always to just like wipe my tears and then tell them like, I'm fine. Everything's good. Don't worry about it. And try to distract them or turn it around and then sue them and make sure that they're good. And what I've learned in those moments is that I'm sending a message that it's not okay for me to feel how I'm feeling and I'm trying to hide it from that. And I'm also creating, yeah, a dissonance, right? Because my kids can tell that I'm sad. They're so wise and they're so perceptive. So if I'm telling them that I'm not and that I'm good, there's something there where they, you know, they're going to think, well, maybe I'm misreading this cue or what I'm seeing isn't what I'm being told that I'm seeing that’s shameful.
And there's something, there's a dissonance there. So I think if we can just let them witness our emotions in a way that feels safe for them, can be a really powerful teacher. two things I guess I like to keep in mind when it comes to them feeling safe around my emotions, especially the uncomfortable ones, is first telling them that they are safe, right? Hey, yeah, I'm crying because I'm really sad right now. Or I'm crying because I'm really disappointed about something or I'm frustrated about something. And you know what, it's okay for me to do this. Everyone gets, you know, just normalizing it and then teaching them that they can, that they're safe. It's, everyone's okay. You're safe. I'm safe. Even though I'm sitting here crying because I'm sad or disappointed. And then the second thing I really like to teach when it comes to this is affirming to our children that they don't have to make us feel better. Cause I think so often that's, it's a beautiful instinct, right? It's completely- they want to sit there with us in our pain and that is there's so much value in that. would you like to sit next to me while I cry? And you don't have to make me feel better, right? I'm your mom and you're my child and it's okay for me to feel like this and I promise once I just feel it, I'm actually going to feel better in a little bit. But you don't have to do anything to make me happy right now. We can just sit together and you can hold my hand for five minutes and then we can go play or whatever it is that's coming next.
But I think just that, because I think a lot of us can intellectualize our sadness and our rage and our anger, and we can do the same with our kids, right? Yeah, I tell my kids it's okay to feel their feelings. I tell my kids it's okay to be angry. I teach them these things, but they never actually witness us doing it in a way that feels safe. I really like that because it's, know, I often, sometimes I, when we talk about things like iMessages or I get the pushback that, I don't want to put my emotions on my kids. But the way you're describing this process is, you know, what I always say is like, our kids know our emotions anyway, right? They have- we're not fooling them. But this idea of that added layer of, and you don't have to make it better. That's really lovely because then you're really not being very explicit about this is not your responsibility. Thank you for being here. I love you. I'm sad. And that's okay that I'm sad. Just that normalization I think is really helpful.
Yeah, and then we can do the same for them. Yeah. Right? When they're sad or they're whatever, I think, and this was me when my kids were really young before I really learned about this, is the minute they were uncomfortable, I was uncomfortable. And then my immediate response was to try to oversooth, to distract, right? To take them out of the discomfort they were experiencing so they could be, I don't know, happy again, right? Was my aim. But I was really robbing them of the experience of like, do I sit through discomfort? And again, being there with them in a way that's safe and supportive, but teaching them how to ride, ride that emotional wave without robbing them from that practice. So they don't end up becoming, you know, 25 year olds who are so avoidant of anything uncomfortable because they've just never practiced being sad or disappointed or angry or whatever with someone that can teach them and sit with them in that.
Hunter (42:33)
Yeah, I think that's so astute. Of course they need that, And we're seeing the effects of too much protectiveness from emotions like when kids get to college, there's a lot of, there's an uptick and suicide, things like that. mean, it can have big effects to just protect your kids too much and then have them get out in the world. So yes, they need to feel all the uncomfortable feelings and we need to feel some discomfort in our life. I had a really fascinating conversation with Anna Lemke, author of Dopamine Nation and just talking about how the pleasure pain system is the same system. And so that if we're not ever feeling the discomforts, you know, it actually robs us ultimately of the pleasure of our life. It's so fascinating. But yes. And that pleasure. is co-regulation. mean, that's a process of co-regulation that you're describing is like, I'm here with you and it's okay to feel these feelings. How does it, can you bring us into an example of like a real life parenting experience and talk to us about how that would work?
Michelle Grosser (43:50)
Yeah. So I think, you know, the research is actually showing that we share a nervous system with our kids until they're about seven, which is so fascinating. it also requires us to be, you know, to the extent that we can co-regulate with our kids, we all, obviously have to be regulated, right? We're going to be the bar against which they, they either are regulated or dysregulated. You cannot give what you do not have. Yeah. You can only hold to the extent that you're- you cannot give what you do not have, able to do so 100%. So how might this look practically? let's say, I don't know, let's say my three year old is having a temper tantrum about something and you know, whatever emotion big emotion is coming at whatever age your young children are.
So the first thing would be to try to get ourselves regulated, right? What kind of breath can I do in this moment? What can I and sometimes I don't have the time or the wherewithal to even regulate before I jump in, I don't have two minutes right now. My kids are like pulling at the same toy. It's like I got to jump in now. I'll acknowledge what's going on, right? And actually have us all do the same thing together to regulate. Like I'll walk into a room and they're fighting about a toy. Wow, I can hear you guys fighting from the other room. It seems like you both really want that toy. Are you guys feeling angry about this? And you know, you can already tell, right? Their faces are red and they're fists are clenched and there are little somatic cues that they're becoming dysregulated. Here, everyone grab a pillow together, 10 times, we're going to hold it over our heads and we're going to slam it to the ground and just scream, are you ready? One, and then we just hold it up and then we do it 10 times together. Okay, everyone wiggle. Okay, I'm going to put on our favorite song in two minutes, we're going to dance and then we're going to sit down, figure out what's going on here. And every time we do that together, right, by the time we get to like, I don't know, 30 seconds into this thing, someone's laughing because someone's doing something silly and they don't even know what's happening, but their ability to regulate is happening in the moment. They've felt the highs, right? And because I've gotten them out of their head and into their body, that's the number one thing if we're going to co-regulate with our kids, we can't talk to them about it. We've got to get out of our heads and into our bodies and move together, breathe together, experience temperature changes together, right?
Touch, right, gentle and appropriate touch, pressure changes, a weighted blanket, a tight hug. Those are the ways that we regulate, not through talking about what just happened. And then when everyone's back down to a place of regulation, we can have a conversation that needs to happen and we can figure it out. But I think that when it comes to co-regulating, if we can do it first and then be there for them, gold standard, right? And if we can just have the wherewithal to just all get out of our heads and into our bodies together, 90 seconds, two minutes, we'll recognize the shift. And again, everyone will have access to that prefrontal cortex, right? And we'll be able to have a conversation that goes somewhere. So one, and then the second thing I'll say with that is that it's so helpful to have a very short list, like a handful of regulation tools in your back pocket, right? Not a whole list of things that work, but do you have three things that you know really help your kids get out of that fight or flight mode when they're in it and come back to their baseline stress level. So maybe it is, you know, putting on their favorite crazy song or maybe they're allowed to jump on their beds or jump on the couch when this happens and you all get up there together. Maybe you keep, I don't know, pool noodle in your garage and everyone grabs one and they just start smacking the ground or trees in your backyard or what have you. But having those tools, body-based somatic tools, right, that can help them regulate is really, really helpful.
Hunter:
I love that. I'm hearing that you're prioritizing your nervous system, A, sort of in general throughout the day, but you're prioritizing your nervous system as a parent and their nervous system. And then, yeah, then after that we can communicate. Then we can listen. This is so great. I love the way you share everything and the wisdom that you're bringing to this. Your kids are really lucky, which is great. Michelle, it's been such a pleasure to and I've really, really enjoyed it. I'm so pleased that you could come on. Michelle's podcast is the Calm Mom Podcast. And where can people find you?
Michelle Grosser (48:28)
Yeah, so if you already listen to podcasts, that's the best place to find me. That's my favorite place to be. And we don't have as many episodes as you have, Hunter, but we have, I think we're all coming up on 350. So there's a ton of resources there for you guys. The focus being on nervous system solutions for anxiety, overwhelm and burnout. So if that feels like it would be helpful, come hang out with us there. And then my website, MichelleGrosser.com, it's just my name. There's a of resources and all the information that you would want to have access to is there.
Hunter:
Well, this has been such a pleasure. really appreciate you coming on the Mindful Nama podcast and sharing and everything that your story has. I'm sure it has massive impact and I really, really appreciate you coming here.
Michelle Grosser:
Thank you so much for having me. You make it easy.
Hunter (49:23)
Thank you so much for listening. I hope you appreciated this episode. Please let me know what you think. I'm on socials, not on my phone. I check out my desktop. I'm on the socials @MindfulMammaMentor. Tell me what you thought. you text or tell one friend about it today, it makes such a difference. And yeah, I hope you're having a good summer. I hope you're enjoying your time and traveling and not and hopefully all the things in this episode will help make it a little bit better. Anyway, I will be back in your ears right again next week and I'll talk to you soon. Namaste.
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