Alyssa Blask Campbell, M.Ed is the bestselling author of "Tiny Humans, Big Emotions", Founder and CEO of Seed & Sew, and host of the Voices of Your Village podcast. Alyssa has a master’s degree in early childhood education and strives to change the way adults experience children’s emotions so we can respond with the intention to raise emotionally intelligent humans.
560: Raising Resilient Kids Through the Tricky Middle Years
Alyssa Campbell
In this episode, Hunter Clarke-Fields talks with Alyssa Campbell about the often-overlooked middle childhood years and how parents can show up for their kids with more understanding and connection. They explore:
Why every child’s differences matter — especially in how they process the world
The key role of emotional intelligence in growing resilient kids
Sensory processing and how it shapes behavior
Navigating peer relationships and friendship drama without rescuing or controlling
Letting kids feel hard feelings (and why that’s a gift)
Creating safe spaces for emotional expression
How mindfulness helps parents model the behavior they hope to see
The power of apologizing when mistakes are made
Ep 560- Campbell
Read the Transcript 🡮
*This is an auto-generated transcript*
Hunter (00:04)
You're listening to the Mindful Mama Podcast, episode #560. Today we're talking about raising resilient kids through the tricky middle years with Alyssa Campbell.
Welcome to the Mindful Mama Podcast, here to become a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Mama, we know that you cannot give what you do not have, and when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clarke-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course and teacher training and I'm the author of the international bestseller “Raising Good Humans”, “Raising Good Humans Everyday” and the “Raising Good Humans Guided Journal”.
Hello and welcome back. I am happy you are here and I know you're gonna get a lot out of this conversation. To Alyssa Blask Campbell, Master of Education and bestselling author of “Tiny Humans, Big Emotions”, but we're gonna be talking about her new book, “Big Kids, Bigger Feelings: Navigating Defiance, Meltdowns, and Anxiety to Raise Confident, Connected Kids”
And we're gonna talk about this experience of all these emotions in bigger kids, middle years kids. And we're gonna be talking about the idea of sensory processing and you'll get to figure out where your kid is on that spectrum. It's pretty interesting. So I think you're gonna enjoy this episode quite a lot. So let's get right to it. Join me at the table as I talk to Alyssa Campbell.
You're in second baby land. have a year and a half year old now along with first child. And I was just asking you how it's going. You were telling me how different they are. think it's so interesting for us to like realize how different they are.
Alyssa Campbell:
And from the job, their pregnancies were different. They were different babies right from the get-go. I remember the first time I had a home birth, which I had had with Sage as well. I remember when I shared that with you, you're like, that's so Vermont of you.
But I had Mila at home and Sage at home. So I didn't drive in the car for hospitals. The first time we were in the car was for a pediatric appointment. And Sage, my four-year-old, a baby, like scream, cried, and gagged every time we were in the car. So it's like my expectation, right? I'm going in with that. And we put her in the car seat to go to her pediatric visit. And she fell asleep on the way there and then slept through the appointment. I was like, “what?” And so they're just like such different humans. She is high connection seeking. She's high sensory seeking. She's like, let's just chat and hang out in a group and I want to be on your lap or give me a hug. And as long as people are around, like I'm living my dream. And he's like, please put me in a quiet dark room by myself or I can just play and everyone's leaving me alone is his dream. So we have a sensory mismatch in our house, which is sometimes fun to navigate. He like comes down the stairs in the morning and she's usually awake first. And she immediately is like, “high five, morning”. And he's like, :my gosh, can I have a minute?”
Hunter:
Your kids are the exact same age apart as my kids are. they, yeah, we have this amazing picture of Maggie when Sora was born where she's just got like sunglasses on. She's got her arms crushed. She's like, I don't know how you feel about this whole situation. Like, ugh, you know, but like I think for Maggie, she really wanted a playmate. So it was the best birthday present I ever gave her because I, Sora was born less than a week after Maggie's birthday. Wow. yeah, it worked out well ultimately for them. They're good friends now.
Alyssa Campbell (04:53)
Yeah, well that's great news. That is great news. Yeah, they're just different humans. so like navigating that in the house is its own beast. And we all have individual nervous systems and different needs. So the more people we add to that, just the more complex it seems to get.
Hunter:
It's true. That was one of the most fascinating things about when we're in conversation with Jonathan Caspi about siblings is that it's just as like, most of the sibling problems are just like two people living in a house with each other. It's not really like anything about siblings. We just have to kind of work out these issues of like living in a house together and being different people and that kind of thing. thought that was really fascinating. I have good hope for the siblings of tomorrow- that they won't hate each other as much as we hated each other in like the 80s.
Alyssa Campbell:
Well, that's my thing. I just so much therapy around like, have four brothers and our relationship and I want these two to have a different relationship. And my therapist at one point was just like, yeah, also they're just being raised in a different time by different humans. Like that's also just true. it's not the 80s and 90s and the parenting has shifted, the household is different. Like it will inherently be different in some ways and you are a teacher of emotional intelligence. So, chances are your kids are kind of hit the jackpot as far as like the who I'm going to be born to lottery, as far as getting some emotional intelligence skills. My 18 month old has more skills now than I had in like my twenties, which is wild.
Hunter:
That's so funny. So, your 18 month old is like telling you about her feelings?
Alyssa Campbell (06:39)
Yeah, my gosh. She'll do it. She'll go sad. And like, you're feeling sad. Yeah. No play Sagey. Like, Sagey didn't want to play with you. Yeah. It's to feel left out and like chill, but she'll go through the whole thing with us. Yeah. Yeah. These poor kids for better or worse, it is in their space all the time.
Hunter:
I mean, I assume it's for better. I totally just assume that. feel like, it's interesting. When I was little, we had the world challenges in that I roamed my town. I was just a free kid roaming around my town. I met my best friend at the age of four when I was just outside of my neighborhood playing by myself. I love it. But then we had that combined with like, it was my generation combined with like a complete like lack of emotional validation. I mean, at least compared to where we are today, emotional intelligence levels were way down in the bottom of the barrel. There was no, no cognizance of like, you know, “if I yell at my kid, they will probably yell back at me”. And none of that, right? So it was like an interesting combination of things, but I feel like the kids today, their challenge is more like just being, they need to like be out in the world more, right? They need to be less on this toxic digital world, but just getting more, you know, with all the AI generators have more fake and more toxic and more everything day by day by day, right? Like, I don't know. It's like, could we give them the emotional intelligence that we have now with some of the freedom and exploration and the ability to find other kids out in the wild that we had a long time ago? That's what I could wish if I could make it happen.
Alyssa Campbell (08:29)
Yeah, things that came up for me there. One is it makes me think of my friend Ash Brandin. They run the Gamer Educator. They're a librarian as their day job and they wrote a book called “Power On”-
Hutner:
That'll be coming up on the Mindful Mama Podcast, friends!
Alyssa Campbell:
Perfect. That's great. I love the way that they approach this. They told me an analogy a little while ago that just has stuck with me in a lot of different ways. And they were comparing this to like swimming and how swimming is, water is dangerous if you don't know how to navigate it. that we're not, our response isn't, okay, well then we're gonna keep kids away from water all their life. Instead, we're going to give them the skills to be able to navigate this with intention and what it looks like to bring that to screens. Yeah. To teach them about it. And I was like, I needed that. Like it really stuck with me. That's a good analogy, but water is not addictive in the sea.
Alyssa Campbell (09:53.334)
Right? No, totally. Well, that's part of the like, what skills do they need to thrive? Right? Like, what do they need? What boundaries do they need from us when they're young? What information do they need as they get older? That's all a part of the like, what skills you need to navigate this.
Hunter:
Okay, to go with that analogy, when you're swimming, when you're a kid, you have a lifeguard for years and years and years until you are, you know, maybe an adult, you can make your own decision to swim in some place without a lifeguard, right? Like, that's a great analogy: really hit home for me where I was like, this is what I needed. So that comes up where I'm like, I feel hopeful in that space with people like Ash doing this work and providing resources for me as a parent to navigate it. And the second thing, I think when I think of kids today, is the way that we're looking at emotions and emotional literacy, that there's been this pendulum swing, right? And I'm hoping we find the middle ground that a lot of us grew up in like, feelings? What are feelings? Like, you don't have them, they don't matter. Like, what? Go away and stop having those dang feelings.
Alyssa Campbell (11:04)
Just come back when you're ready. I had a fifth grade teacher who is like, come back when you're composed. And I didn't know what composed meant, so I just hung out in the hallway for a while. But she was just like, you know, pull it together, Alyssa, stop having hard feelings. And I look at now that so many of us didn't grow up with a model for what does it look like to be with hard feelings and allow them but not have them dictate circumstances or shift boundaries necessarily. And so we're trying to figure it out as we're driving the ship. And I feel like there's been quite a pendulum swing to this like, feelings are the decision makers of like, I'm going to not do something to avoid my kids' hard feelings, or I'm going to snowplow obstacles out of their way so that they don't have to experience feeling left out, not feeling included, feeling embarrassed, feeling disappointed, feeling sad, right? That we're looking at like, how do we keep those hard emotions at bay so they don't have to feel those heart things. Or we're just talking about all the things all the time in a way that kids are like, I get it. I'm fired, right? Like, yes, I'm frustrated. I'm tired. And I think about myself, like there are so many nights where I'm like, whoo, I'm wiped. And if I was snippy with my husband and he was like, are you feeling frustrated? Like every time this happened. I was like, yeah, I'm tired. Like, I'm just not, I'm not at my best right now. And we have a tendency to over process.
Hunter (12:43)
Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break.
I think that's true. The pendulum swings in different directions and yeah, we need to try to walk that middle ground of like, are relating to you as humans and, and yeah, we have some, you know, even if you have some difficult feelings, we may have some expectations of you to be able to, you know, be able to also go to school or whatever it is.
That's a good segue because your new book is about the elementary years and previously you were focusing on the early years where you have your little darlin right now who is the recipient of all that great learning. So wonderful. But yeah, the elementary years. And I was wondering, why do you think this stage gets kind of overlooked and what drew you to look at it and explore it?
Alyssa Campbell:
Yeah, I feel like we hear a lot about the early childhood years being so exhausting. They're physical. You're up at night, you're carrying kids, they need you for all these things physically. And then the teenage years being so exhausting and challenging emotionally. And there's kind of this myth that there's this glorious period where things are fine and kids don't have needs and they're just chilling. In that middle childhood space.
And when we published “Tiny Humans, Big Emotions”, within like a month, I started getting messages and emails from people that were like, my gosh, yes. And also like, why is my nine-year-old a teenager? Like, what is happening here? Like my seven-year-old just rolled their eyes and slammed a door. Like, what do I do with this? And we just realized that people were feeling served and supported with tiny humans and really needed that next age range where things start to become so much more social, that the peer relationships start to matter in a new way. We're seeing hormones come in to play in a new way. That inclusion and belonging of like, who am I outside of this family? What is my identity? How do I fit in? What fills me up outside of who I am at home? It starts to play a whole new role and we couldn't find a solid resource for those middle childhood years. And so we wrote it.
Hunter:
All right, cool. Well, take me into you went into some of the science, some of the research development, what's happening as kids get into elementary school years in development.
Alyssa Campbell:
Yeah, so it is really the first big time where they're starting to kind of separate from us a bit more. We see this whether kids are in school or they're homeschooled, they're going to start to pull and look outside of just at home. Who am I? They're going to start to look at what am I interested in? What fires me up? And what all of sudden they're like, I need this pair of shoes or I care about the shirt I'm wearing or how my hair looks or really looking at like, who am I in the world? And with that comes a lot of us stuff, a lot of feelings for us that are going to pop up in this time where we are going to have things and maybe we haven't even considered in decades of times where we felt left out or we didn't feel included or we felt that peer pressure to belong. And so often when we are in this space where we're parenting kids in these middle childhood years, the parts of us that pop up aren't the ones that are like, I loved this time. This was so great. It's the parts that we're like, that was so scary. I need to prevent that from happening for my kid. It's not always that clear, but it ends up showing up in our behavior.
In doing research for this book, I was chatting with, we interviewed kids, we interviewed parents, we interviewed teachers. Because having this conversation with this parent, who was really in the space of like, when do I step in? Where the kids, her daughter had come home and they ended up through behavior first getting to a space where she shared that there had been some like kind of friendship drama at school. Wait, wait, what do you mean by behavior first? that like a process? Is that like just by seeing the behavior she has? If she didn't come in and was like, Mom, had a hard day at school. Can we talk about it? You're going to like knock your backpack and yes, exactly. A series of behaviors that came first that mom was like, whoa, what's going on here? And then they got to eventually a conversation. I just don't want the idea that like your kid's going to walk in the door and be like, hey, mom, I got to talk this through. Like that's probably not how it's going to start.
Hunter (19:26)
No, no, that's never, never how it starts. Yeah, yeah, the whole behavior is communication is very, very, very true. think with all of us and I say what you saying earlier, the idea of like them being more excited about the community, the school, the peers, all that stuff, makes so much sense. Like if you think back to humans being the most social primate species that ever existed on earth and we lived in tribes, right? Like it would be that way maybe from the beginning in most contexts, right? But this is maybe the first time it really ends up happening in a real way in our particular like maybe Western industrialized like modern context.
Alyssa Campbell:
And Brene Brown has said some research that under the age of seven, kids are really reliant on an adult to stay alive. Right? So it's not like they hit their seventh birthday and they're like, deuces, I've got this, like I'm out. But they really like from food and shelter and water and navigating the world are heavily reliant on an adult to stay alive. You think of a baby, like if you set them down and walk away, they can't just do this on their own. Then as they get older, they're building more skills to be able to navigate the world in a way where they can access food if they need it sometimes or water or shelter and kind of make some more cognitive decisions there. And so from a social primate and developmental perspective, those things make total sense, right? So this girl would come home, she rolled her eyes, she's throwing the backpack on the ground. They get to the point where finally mom hears that there's been some lfriendship drama happening at school and these girls are getting together and planning this like dance they're gonna do together and they're choreographing. You I think back to like my early days of like with my friends choreographing dances to songs and now they're doing this and they're doing this TikTok one and she wasn't included in it. So this whole group of friends is doing it and not her. And the mom was like, “I mean, do I reach out to the parents of these other girls and talk about the language they're using around my daughter? I would want to know if my daughter's excluding other people and really that instinct to protect, to make sure that they don't feel these hard things is so strong”. And it's a practice to get to the place where we can be a container for those feelings, we can hold that space for our kids without stepping in and saying, I'm gonna make this go away for you.
Hunter:
Yeah, where it can be their problem and not your problem, right? Where you can be a listener. It's so hard because it's, you have to contend with, it's funny, my 18 year old, she just said to me, yeah, this thing, I forgot what we were doing, but brought me back to flashbacks about not being picked first and in elementary school. I was like, yeah, gosh, you remember that? And you, when it's happening and your kid is so upset with you there, you're just feeling like what they're feeling because it's also probably bringing up long buried feelings of that from your own childhood, right? It's so hard to be like, I'm just gonna be here for my kid because now you're like, I have the power to do something about it and shut up. Which is a legitimate question. And yeah, I'm curious how you fall down on that question. And I think we fall on the same area, is a little bit of that we have to back off and let these things, these hard things happen for our kids to some degree, right?
Alyssa Campbell:
Yes, I'm not putting obstacles in their way. Exactly. But I think about it and like, they're going to feel these things for their whole life in some way, in some capacity. And right now, under my roof, in this context of our relationship, they have an opportunity to learn that the feeling they're experiencing is both normal and safe and that they can handle this. It's an opportunity to practice so that when they experience that and I'm not there or they don't turn to me, they still know that they're worthy, they're loved, they're valued. This doesn't define them and that they can handle this hard thing. This hard thing they're experiencing won't last forever and they can navigate it and they get to practice that with us. And if every time something comes up as an obstacle, we remove that from them. They don't get that practice. And then they're going to go out into the world. We're going to see huge spikes of anxiety and depression where they feel like they're failing because they're experiencing these hard things and they don't have a toolbox to navigate them. And there's nobody there removing that painful obstacle for them.
And we've seen that, right? Like we have seen that. Yeah. That the spikes of anxiety and things are there and we have lots of thoughts on, and people have lots of different thoughts on like why they're there. But I do think that is definitely a factor is that if you don't have any practice, it's going to be unacceptable that you feel some discomfort or anxiety or sadness or feeling left out, whatever that feeling is, it's going to be like an unacceptable feeling that you have to numb or make go away in some way if it's something that's completely foreign to you.
Hunter:
Exactly, and can lead to things like entitlement, where it's like, know I'm entitled to be a part of everything that I want to be included in. Or I'm entitled to this access to whatever it is because I've always been given that. That I haven't experienced, I felt left out and I was not included. Like there's a world in which this girl is not a part of these dances being made with these friends.
Alyssa Campbell (25:40)
And they continue to make them and she's not included in those. And she gets to look at what does that mean? Are these people I want to keep being friends with? Is it somebody that I feel good about? Am I going to build a skill for saying to them, myself? And maybe that's where a parent comes in and coaches them like, yeah, what do you feel comfortable doing? Would it feel good to say, hey, I feel left out? Maybe they didn't think about you and that's really hurtful. Maybe they're not saying, we thought about you and we're purposefully keeping you out. Maybe they are. I'm not sure. But is that something you want to ask them of like, I'm feeling left out. I'd like to be included in this. How does that feel? And maybe the girl says, yeah, I'm never doing that. I'd rather just not hang out with them or talk to them or ignore it. But we get to be there to help with that, like problem solving, conflict, res scaffolding and skill building from the outside. And then they get to choose, what do I do with that? What decision do I want to make?
Hunter:
Yeah. And it may not be the perfect decision, right? And it may be a decision that leads to more discomfort. My daughter was a senior. She made a decision had a real big friend drama and ex-girl drama, all kinds of things happening. And she made a decision that she talked to me about and I kind of advised- again, was like, I don't think that's going to go so well. And she did it anyway and it really fell down apart around her and led to a lot of discomfort for a number of months for her. it's like, okay, well, the way I see these kinds of things is like, and I think this is a way that we should look at these things is that, yeah, our kids need practice in this. It's better for them to go through these difficult things: whether it's the missing the homework, the homework being their problem, we can go there if you want as far as elementary, but, or the friend thing or whatever it is and messing up, being human and making a mistake, messing up and then having a good chunk of that stuff happen in the 18 years that they are at home and that you are there and you can be there and be that support, be that security, be that soft landing to listen, to help them through it. They're not just going out and experiencing all this on their own.
Alyssa Campbell:
Yeah, exactly. They get to practice that, but they got to practice it and they're going to learn from it. Another big focus for us in this book and in these middle childhood years, helping kids understand how their bodies work. So when I was talking about my two kids, Sage and Mila, Sage is like, he's sensory sensitive. He gets overwhelmed with a lot of stimuli. He prefers a small focused group of people and Mila's like, let's have a dance party. Let's be in a large group, like all the connections seeking and sensory seeking. And so much of what we're going to be working on as they continue to get older is helping them understand how their body works and how that connects to their brain and what they need to thrive in the world. Yeah, and how that connects to other people in a social context. Because even your kid who doesn't want all that sensory overload, doesn't want all that maybe social stimulation, you know it's not going to be good for them to withdraw from the world because of it, right? That's terrible, right? The loneliness and isolation from people trying to avoid discomfort of interaction with other people.
Hunter (29:44)
That isn't such a grand answer either. So it's like about like kind of learning the care and keeping of you so that you can say, okay, I'm this way and etc. Right? So you're talking about those. And in this book, you talk about the senses too. I also want to hear about like the nine senses as well.
Alyssa Campbell:
When we're looking at that, what I'm helping them understand is those nine senses, which we'll break down here, and how those senses show up for them. So we often hear about the first five, sight, sound, taste, touch, smell. And then there are three others that are thrown into the mix a little more, and then one more that we combined in here as well. Okay, hold on, let me guess. You've got interoception, your sense of what's happening inside your body. Proprioception is balance and your body is in space, kind of, right? So yeah, your balance and movement is your vestibular sense, located in your inner ear. It keeps you upright, right? Vestibular. Dang it. Yep.
Hunter (30:48)
Yeah, yeah, vestibular and then proprioception is kind of where you are in space. Are those the other three? Wait, five, six, seven, eight. There's one. And then where's one more?
Alyssa Campbell:
There's one more that's like pretty newer on the scene in terms of being included in the senses. It used to be like always separated. But just to break those down a little more for listeners, so that interception lets you know like, I'm hungry, I'm tired, I have to go to the bathroom, my heart's beating fast, those internal cues, that vestibular, as we said, keeps you upright, responsible for your movement and balance. Think of like going on the swings, doing a downward dog pose in yoga, like moving the plane of your head.
And our vestibular sensitive humans would be listening and saying like, I'm motion sick with those things. And a vestibular seeker is like, yeah, put me on a swing, put me in an office chair that kind of rotates or a swivel chair. Spin me around. That's right.
And then proprioception is, I have low proprioceptive awareness and what this looks like is I'll like bump into the table or my bed frame for the love cannot figure out where my leg ends and my bed frame begins. always have like a bruise on it from like turning that corner too tight. And so our proprioceptive sense lets us know where things are around us and where our body ends. And folks with lower proprioceptive awareness are higher proprioceptive seeking. So they're looking for more of that to say like, where do I end? I'm a human who could have a massage for four days and I'm like, I want more. Like I love deep touch. I love that pressure. And so in terms of physical activity, I'm looking for like big body play. Give me a kickboxing class. I like lifting weights. Like those are things that my body really craves as a proprioceptive seeker with a little proprioceptive awareness.
My son who has hyper perceptive awareness has a bigger space bubble. He's like, yep, we're close enough. You're good. I know that I end here. He also is phenomenal. He has like a power wheels tractor. He can Bob and weave in and around things and not hit the things around him. And I'm like, Ooh, you're so close to that. And he makes the cut and he can do it because he has such hyper perceptive awareness. He's aware of like, what is the size of this thing? I'm close enough, but not too close to that. He can navigate those where like my nightmare is I'm on a highway and there's a cement wall on one side and a semi truck and I'm like sweaty and nobody talked to me, please. I'm just trying to get through this. And so looking at like, that's how those show up. Now our last one is neuroception. And I call this our spidey sense. It is our safety sense. You know, if like there's conflict in a room with two people and they stop arguing, but you like walk in and you can feel that energy in the room. That's your neuroceptive sense saying like, something's off here. And it's how when somebody says like, I'm fine, we know they're not fine. Right? Like you hear it in their tone. That's your neuroceptive sense. It perceives that like nonverbal communication. It's really that like energy reader. And it's one that for kids who have high ACEs, who have a lot of trauma is often heightened. They're typically phenomenal at reading nonverbal communication because it's often kept them safe in the way.
Hunter (34:11.029)
Yeah, unfortunately. That's right.
Alyssa Campbell:
That's right. And it's why like for teachers of these humans, it's so crucial that we're aware of the neuroception in the space. Like if a kid walks in and I'm like, hey bud, versus like, hey bud, it's so good to see you. Or if I got big energy and I'm like, hi buddy, and they like retreat, that I can really be mindful. Like what's my tone? What's my body language here? So that neuroceptive sense is, it's like our safety sense. So when we're looking at those nine senses, all of us are sensitive to some versus seeking others for regulation. And it's different for all of us. So we actually work to the group of occupational therapists to put together a comprehensive questionnaire that you can take at any age. In fact, what's been so interesting is so far since this has been out in the world, the overwhelming majority of questionnaires taken have been by adults for adults where they're taking it for themselves of like, wait, how do I function in work? Which is awesome because if we understand how we function in work, then we can better regulate ourselves to respond with intention. So the way that it works is you take the questionnaire and in the end, it'll tell you, all right, you might be kind of a neutral seeker where you're seeking a little bit of sensory input. You can filter a bunch out. You might be high seeking where you're gonna need to like, have some accommodations probably in place. My colleague is a high sensory seeker. She's got like an essential roller in her bag that she can put on at any point to smell. She is going to have fidgets and click things. She likes to listen to background music when she's working in earbuds. She's really seeking quite a bit of stimuli for regulation. And then we have that sensory sensitive, which is really saying that those humans are so good at noticing details.
I married a sensory sensitive human and I had clipped my nails recently and he was like, hey, I saw you cut your nails. And I was like, oh my gosh, thanks, I feel seen. And he was like, yeah, you put the nail clippers back in the wrong spot. And I was like, oh, that's not where I thought that was going. But for him, and for the record, same cabinet just a little bit to the right, it just is so noticeablepicks up on all the details. He's a phenomenal person to like edit your paper. He's going to notice those little details of things that my brain often misses. I'm the annoying partner, like making piles everywhere. And he's like, can you just put it behind a door or a cabinet or in a drawer so it's not overwhelming my brain?
Hunter:
That's so funny because this that is my husband too. And he does of course like computer programming stuff where you have to like pay attention to like its details and things like that. But he's he was my first editor for me. He was really good at it was great.
Alyssa Campbell:
Yes, that was so smart. Yes. so often our details humans, they, we consider them sensory sensitive because they're sensitive to the sensory stimuli. They notice it. They're hyper aware of it. What this means is that they can get overwhelmed with stimuli faster because their brain is paying attention to details that other brains might miss. Where like my nightmare is that I am asked by the police at like a crime scene, like any details. What was the person wearing? What car were they driving? And I'm like, I can tell you nothing about them. have no rec, my husband would be like, it's a blue shirt. It was this car. This is the gear. Here are any details about the car. There was a scratch on the left side, whatever. Like not how my brain works. What that means for me is that I can often handle more stimuli in a chunk of time before accessing a regulating activity then he can. He'll get overwhelmed faster. He needs more frequent breaks. He needs some more accommodations throughout the day to reduce stimuli for him to increase his capacity.
Hunter (38:19)
Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break.
This is so interesting because I'm thinking about this in the sort of worlds of mindfulness, right? Like where we can, we're practicing to increase our awareness of various things. Maybe it's the breath or it's the proprioception awareness of our belly or our feet on the ground, whatever it is. But we're also at the same time, know, practicing to regulate the body, right? We're noticing more heightened experiences and we're relaxing into this. So it's like practicing awareness and relaxation sort of at the same time and kind of sort of shifting, right? In some ways between those things. And I'm thinking about these sort of different levels of people and how this might, you know, like for the person who needs accommodations of fidgets and things like that, if they say they go into like a mindfulness session, they practice a sitting meditation session. They're like, my God, I'm going to die of fidgetiness. And, and we, the teacher invites them to die of fidgetiness, right? Like to go through that process of letting yourself die of fidgetiness. Of course they don't. And what, you know, what I've seen that benefit people in, in that way, but then also in sort of the other sense, the people who are so hyper aware of maybe that practice of the relaxing or calming the nervous system is more apropos. I don't know. Any thoughts on that?
Alyssa Campbell:
Yeah, yeah, 100%. I think what we're also kind of talking around, not talking about yet, is the role that neurodivergence plays in this and that our sensory sensitive humans can be neurodivergent where they are noticing a lot of those cues and can get overwhelmed. And for a human who is sensory sensitive, having them sit in a space where their nervous system is overwhelmed and flooded and doesn't feel safe and tune into and say like, allow that is I think applicable for a neurotypical human, for a human who they can notice those things and tune into things that maybe they aren't yet noticing and might still feel safe in their nervous system while doing that.
Hunter:
Yeah, I guess it's a sense of safety that is the key to that system, that process. Anyway, sorry, go ahead.
Alyssa Campbell:
Yes. And so like that's what I believe here too. And that if we have a sensory sensitive human who we're saying like, yeah, it's chaotic and there's so much stimuli and we want you to just be in it and notice it, they already are noticing it in such a heightened manner that for them, their nervous system is having a stress response to the amount of stimuli they're noticing. Our sensory seekers on the other hand, also can be neurodivergent on that sensory seeking side. For them to notice their desire to seek stimuli is also their body's way of saying, like, how do I feel safe in this world? That I'm not noticing this smell or I'm not, I'm not sure where my body ends and something else begins. And so their nervous system encourages them to seek out proprioceptive input or tactile input to let them know, entere, that thing begins there, that that turns that communication system on.
So we're talking about like the difference between seeking that input versus seeking that safety, right? That's kind of like, and then in some ways, like even safety on both sides actually, seeking like a retreat from the stimuli that like seeking that calm and stillness and silence that for a neuro-typical brain might be able to seek even amidst chaos more easily than a neurodivergent brain could seek. Does that make sense?
Hunter:
I think so. So for the elementary school kids, you're helping parents to maybe identify where is my kid in this spectrum, right? Like, are they sensory sensitive? Are they sensory seeking, right? Like, and what kind of, how do I teach them about sort of the care and keeping of them with all this in mind?
Alyssa Campbell (46:10)
That's right. And so we have a QR code for the quiz in there, but it's seedquiz.com. Anyone can access it, whether you have the book or not. And it's free. You can take as many times as you want for all the humans in your family at different age. There's different age brackets. You get age-appropriate questions, age-appropriate results. And with each one, it's shown on a spectrum. So it's not like, you're sensitive to smell. It shows it on a spectrum of negative two to plus two. Like, how sensitive to smell are you? My whole family has done it. it is so helpful because it gives, for me, compassion to my tiny humans. Like, you're not trying to be a pain in my butt. Your nervous system is overwhelmed. Or you need to move your body before you can come sit at the dinner table or have this hard conversation or do your homework. But you have needs that are coming first. And we have a homework example.
And in the book with a story that we had from a family where we really had to go through like, why was this kid who's so capable, not doing their homework and turning it in and then starting to fail this class? And what was really coming up for them and what was in their way? And what did they need to happen before their brain could actually access the homework and the task demands of homework? A lot of it had to do with their sensory systems, that they weren't in a regulated enough state coming home from school to then access that. And when we put a plan in place that allowed them to get those needs met, homework started happening. They had the capacity for it. And so we use this, the nine senses, to really understand how does your unique brain and body show up in the world? And then not as an excuse, but rather as a lens for, what are you going to need for access? That if my son wants to be a part of a play and there's going to be all these different people or components, or he wants to be on a basketball team that's going to be loud in the gym and all that jazz, knowing how his brain and body work, what's he going to need to be successful for that? Not, those things aren't for him because of how his brain and body works.
But what's he going to need to be successful there? And for my daughter, who's so high connection seeking and sensory seeking, what's she going to need to thrive? That for her, because connection is so important, inclusion and belonging are going to be very important for her. learning how to navigate feeling left out or feeling embarrassed are going to be big challenges for her. She's going to fall on that emotional side of what does she need emotionally to be able to thrive in the world. And for every single human, it's going to be different. And we look at this from a place of equity. Like, what does this nervous system need to thrive?
Hunter:
And I love this because you're approaching it not from a point of view of like, okay, parents, let's just, you know, from inviting the parents to be in the place of like, listen, be aware, see your kid, right? Be curious about who is this kid in front of you, right? Really try to understand, be aware of them, but also then be this coach, be this supporter. Like, notice-
Alyssa Campbell:
-what are these, mistakes your kid's making or the challenges they're having? What are they telling you about your kid? What can you learn about them? And then as a parent, you can then be the one who says, okay, what do you need? And then if there's some boundaries to hold, know, maybe we can discuss what they are and we can discuss why they're there and because of who you are, right? And then, you know, rather than being like, know, what I'm kind of hearing from you as you describe, you know, a parent understanding a kid is that it's a dialogue. It's like, you know, okay, you're about to fail this class. Let's start to understand what do you need to be successful and what is it that's going on with your body and your mind and all of those things. I love all that. It leads to just more curiosity.
Hunter (50:35.854)
I was just going to say, I love this. I'm going to shout out the book. It's “Big kids, Bigger feelings”. So if you want to dive deeper into this, go get the book. It's out now, “Navigating Defiance, Meltdowns, and Anxiety to Raise Confident, Connected Kids” is the subtitle for a parent who's like, my God, I'm in this. And it's like a roller coaster and it's scary. Final words of wisdom for that parent?
Alyssa Campbell:
Most things aren't an emergency. And so when we can slow down and notice for myself, writing it down is helpful. Also talking to somebody is helpful. So when I noticed that spiral of like, oh my God, my kid's going to be 16 and have no friends and I'm failing them in life. And what does this mean? And I'm jumping ahead to like this wild scenario when it's like, oh, they're five today though. It is helpful for me to really look at what is my fear here? What am I noticing? And then what's my fear about what that's going to mean for them down the road or for them more immediately? And that slowing down of getting curious with yourself will automatically start to slow down your nervous system. And then we can get curious about, all right, now what is happening now? And our greatest greatest tool is curiosity. if we recognize that even if they failed every class or nobody wants to hang out with them right now, or they are swearing and slamming doors in your face right now, right now, today, is most likely not an emergency. That if we can slow down and start to get curious, it usually leads us to then greater results.
And I feel like the number one parenting, I guess, strategy that I want, there's so much information out in the world right now. think it could be like, okay, don't say this, say that. But if we're going to focus on one thing and one thing only with our kids today, it's to apologize when we make mistakes. That if we think back to our childhood, so many of us didn't receive repair, which is that apology from an adult. And what ends up happening is that when an adult does something, they yell, they react, they're yelling at you about your homework and why didn't you do this? And you said you were doing it and you went into school and you didn't turn it in and you lied to me. When they're yelling and they're dysregulated and they're reacting, the child doesn't see, my mom's dysregulated and having a hard time with her feelings. The child sees, I'm bad. I'm failing. They internalize shame about themselves. And so when you do react and then you come back and say, man, I'm so sorry. Earlier, I was feeling scared and overwhelmed, frustrated, and I was yelling at you about your homework. And I said a lot of things that aren't true. I'm still learning how to calm my body when I'm feeling frustrated and overwhelmed. You are incredible and we're going to figure this out together. This isn't an emergency. I love you. And we do that. It takes it. It takes that shame from them.
Hunter:
Yes, yes, I love that. teaches them how to apologize. also models, you know, it models that your humanity, right? It models humanity. gives, know, when you apologize, you're giving yourself permission to have been human, which you were pretty human, right? And then, but it also gives your kids permission to be human and not be ashamed of it. Absolutely. I love that. Love that, Alyssa. This is so good. All right, well, everyone go get the book. Alyssa, I love talking to you. “Bigger kids, Bigger Feelings”, and then the Seed & Sew podcast, right?
Alyssa Campbell:
Voices of Your Village Podcast. Seed & Sew is the mothership. So if you go to Seed & Sew or @seed.and.sew, over on socials, we hang out there a bunch. We do a lot of this work in school districts. if you're a parent tuning in, who's like, “I want to bring this work to my child's school!”, you can reach out to us- support@seedandsew.org- and we can kind of take it from there. If you're a teacher or administrator and you want to bring this work into schools, that's what we do for our main main source of this work and excited to get this book out into the world. Thanks for having me Hunter.
Hunter:
Absolutely. Thank you for the work that you do and thank you for on behalf of all the elementary school age parents who are going to benefit from this enormously. And I always love talking to you, Alyssa. I wish Vermont were closer to Delaware.
Hey, I hope you liked this episode, appreciated it, found it helpful! All of those things! I hope it was an all net positive in your life, this podcast. If it was, I would love to know. It really makes my day when people tell me, so you can let me know. I'm @MindfulMamaMentor on the socials. And anyway, I hope you're doing well. That's all I got for you. And I can't wait to talk to you again next week. Thank you. Namaste.
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