Sarah Armstrong is the author of "The Art of the Juggling Act: Bite-Sized Guide for Working Parents," and "The Mom's Guide to a Good Divorce." She is also Google’s Vice President of Global Marketing Operations.
544: Work-Life Juggling Act
Sarah Armstrong
Hunter Clarke-Fields talks to Sarah Armstrong about the complexities of work-life balance, debunking the myth of perfect balance, addressing challenges at different parenting stages, and exploring parental guilt. They emphasize the necessity of asking for help without guilt, the significance of support systems and parenting education, balancing home and career, recharging, and the role of workplace culture. The conversation also covers establishing boundaries and the value of time away from children for a healthy family dynamic.
Ep 544- Armstrong
Read the Transcript 🡮
*This is an auto-generated transcript*
Sarah Armstrong (00:00)
Allowing yourself to know that you're doing the best you can and try to remove that feeling of guilt I think is so important.
Hunter (00:10)
you're listening to the Mindful Mama podcast episode number 544. Today we're talking about the work life juggling act with Sarah Armstrong.
Welcome to the Mindful Mama podcast. Here it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Mama, we know that you cannot give what you do not have. And when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clarke-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting Course and Teacher Training. I'm the author of the international bestseller, “Raising Good Humans”, “Raising Good Humans Every Day”, and the “Raising Good Humans Guided Journal”.
Hello, welcome back to the Mindful Momma podcast. I hope you are well today. Today we're gonna be talking to Sarah Armstrong, author of “The Art of the Juggling Act: Bite-Sized Guide for Working Parents” and “The Mom's Guide to a Good Divorce”. And she's also Google's VP of Global Marketing Operations. And we're gonna talk about work and life, the complexities of it. We're gonna debunk some myths. We're gonna talk about asking for help without guilt and support systems and balancing home and career, recharging, all of that good stuff. So if you are a working parent, this is definitely the episode for you. So join me at the table as I talk to Sarah Armstrong.
Well Sarah, thank you so much for coming on the Mindful Normal Podcast.
Sarah Armstrong (02:33)
Thank you for having me, Hunter. Great to be with you.
Hunter (02:35)
Yeah, so this is definitely an episode for the working parents. And you have a new book, The Art of the Juggling Act, and you talk about the myths. So what do you think is the biggest myth about work-life balance and how should parents be rethinking this?
Sarah Armstrong (02:52)
You know, it's interesting because the concept of it being a myth, I actually, I use the analogy of standing on a fluid stance. Like, do you know those things you stand on? Like I stand on my desk on this with something called a fluid stance. And what that is, is it's constantly moving. And so I think the thing with ⁓ the juggling act or the balancing act of people is it's never going to be stable.
And you actually have to understand and appreciate that it's going to be a constantly moving picture, whether what's happening at work, what's happening in your personal life with your family, and it's constantly going to be moving. And so I think the challenge with people thinking that it'll ever be fully balanced is the best. It's always going to be moving.
And so that's what I try to help people understand is it's more about how you actually kind of go with the ebb and flow of the changes that are happening, both in how you're trying to manage your career and how you're trying to manage your family life that is actually where the quote unquote balance comes in.
Hunter (03:57)
Okay, all right. don't feel like you're... Kind of what I'm hearing you say is like, don't feel like a failure if you never get it balanced, because you're not going to ever get it balanced.
Sarah Armstrong (04:05)
No, that's absolutely the myth is there's no, the myth is the concept of balance is it's going to be constantly moving. So you're never going to feel quite, but it's just completely stable.
Hunter (04:15)
Well, that is what balance is anyway. Like if you try to balance on your foot, you're, you know, you're, you're constantly shifting and little muscles are constantly moving and things like that. So maybe balance is appropriate, but we just don't think of it as like completely still. need to.
Sarah Armstrong (04:28)
Yeah, exactly, exactly. We know that there's constant movement underneath, like, you know, underneath the surface there's things that are moving. And you can, I mean, you can start to feel like, okay, things are as they should be, but there's always going be something that you're having to keep your eye on that's going to be shifting and that you need to maybe attend to. So that's, think, where the, to think that you can just have a stable, constant, you know, quote unquote balance is, think, probably where I'd call that a myth.
Hunter (04:55)
Okay, so you've been through like every age and stage. You said your daughter's 22 now, right? So, and you've been working some pretty high powered jobs in there in Coca Cola and Google and things like that. What was the hardest age?
Sarah Armstrong (05:12)
You know, it's so great, great question. You know, I think the, do think when the kids are younger and you are having, I mean, to get out of the house in the morning, I always felt like was an Olympic event because, you know, between getting yourself ready, getting your kids ready, making sure you had everything they needed in their backpack, you had your stuff. So I always felt like that stage was the hardest as a working parent. at once, you know, Grace, who's now 22, but once she could get herself dressed or, you know, maybe make her own breakfast, which is further down the road. But those things, then things get a little bit easier. But I do think those early days of where you're literally having to be all hands on deck every morning and trying to get yourself out the door as a working parent. And then at night, the same thing, know, dinnertime, bath time, reading, you know, so I do think the earlier stages are tougher and it does get, I say easier: kids knew to do differently later in life, but I do think those early stages are where it's, you can see just that parents are exhausted. They have intensity and they're just, they're almost, I say that a lot of parents I see are surviving and maybe not thriving in that stage, because it's just, they're just trying to get through every day.
Hunter (06:10)
Yeah, just the intensity of it. And was there any stage you felt particularly was like a peak of like, did you feel like that guilt that people, you know, talk about feeling of like working and parenting and not being only able to do each of those to a certain percentage?
Sarah Armstrong (06:37)
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I always knew I wanted to work. I think that there was a, and I always knew I wanted to have a family. So I wanted to figure out how to do both well. But one of the things, the concept of guilt is something, by the way, I grew up Catholic. I always joke that guilt is ingrained in us. I was, you know, as it came to being a working parent, I really wanted to make sure I wasn't giving myself and provide like, feeling that feeling of guilt every day. And so one of the things I used a little mantra that I would tell myself and I'd actually tell Grace often, which is, mom's doing the best I can. And that was my mantra of trying to say whether, you know, was I showing up in the way I need to do for her? Was I at work the way I needed to be? And was I showing up in life for friends and family and things? But I think allowing yourself to know that you're doing the best you can and try to remove that feeling of guilt, I think is so important, because I do think it can so weigh on you. And it's quite honestly unfair to us as working parents because we are trying to do the best we can. And it isn't something that I feel is ⁓ a feeling that's productive.
Hunter (07:46)
Yeah, I don't think so either. But it's, it's not, I'm glad that you were able to come to that. I mean, you know, I notice for me, feel like I've never, I don't know, I've never felt guilty for the time I needed for myself or my work or things like that. But, cause I thought, oh, you know, my husband, he's not feeling guilty about any of this. Like for me, it was like in a very feminist way. Like I just was like, well, why should I feel guilty? He's not feeling guilty, but there's a big divide for a lot of people.
Sarah Armstrong (08:18)
There is a big divide and I agree with you. I do think there's a difference in terms of how men and women probably take on that feeling of responsibility of doing both and assuming that more of it, honestly, I think a lot of times falls on us as moms to carry all of the things that we need to do in both sides of our life. it's not that I don't think men aren't, you know, having that feeling, just don't think guilt is what they would articulate as. They might feel they might miss out on some things, but I'm not sure it's this daily guilt that moms probably get. Sure. Yeah. Love that.
Hunter (08:55)
They don't have the cultural pressure. Not at all. Everybody's like giving them a round of applause if they show up to a kiddie class.
Sarah Armstrong (09:04)
Very true. And if we don't show up, then eyebrows are raised.
Hunter (09:09)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. I like to give people permission. You don't have to go to your kids' practices when they're on sports. I'm like, go to practices. A, then you have an hour where your kid is covered. You can go for a walk, you could do whatever. And then B, then they're not doing this sports practice for you. Well, like they're only doing it for themselves, which is really you only wanted them to do it for themselves anyway, right?
Sarah Armstrong (09:41)
Absolutely. And it's interesting because I think that's generational that this generation of parents thinks that going and watching practice is the norm. I I grew up as an athlete and I can tell you my parents never came to watch my practices. They would come to my games as many as they could or whatever. But the concept of sitting and watching me practice, that never happened ever. And it wasn't even not even a consideration to do that. And so I do think there's a difference that again, if we add the societal expectations on to parents, that had been added over the years. That's one that I find to be, I'm not sure when that happened, to tell you Hunter, but I do think it's one that is definitely, you should give yourself the gift of time and let your kids go to practice or go to whatever wonderful event they're doing at school. And you can use that time for something else.
Hunter (10:28)
Dear listener, and I are in agreement. It's a crazy, it's like a new old fashioned thing. Like don't do it. Don't give into this pressure.
Sarah Armstrong (10:38)
No, no, yeah, because honestly, yeah, not something I buy, I would, would espouse to for our working parents that are trying to juggle so much on a day-to-day basis, say.
Sarah Armstrong (10:50)
Thanks.
Hunter (10:51)
Okay, so what are some of the bite-sized habits that you recommend for parents who are in the thick of it? Maybe they have little ones, maybe they have bigger ones, but they're just in the thick of it. They're feeling overwhelmed by responsibilities of career and family. What habits?
Sarah Armstrong (11:07)
Yeah. So a couple of things, a couple of small habits that I think are interesting to reflect on. One is that there's so much that comes at you every day. And sometimes as parents, we feel like we need to address it and handle it right in that moment. And what I did over the years is I had something called my Sunday list. And so something would come at me. It could be a birthday invitation. It could be a permission slip, whatever. And if it could be put on the Sunday list, that's where it went. So it wasn't in my, you know, kind of staying in the back of my head like, I need to do that thing. It's like, nope, I'll handle it on Sunday. And then on Sunday, I'd set aside an hour and just try to crash through as many of those things on the list that were supposed to be handled. And if it wasn't something urgent, it would go to the next Sunday. So it was about freeing up the week for all the things that come at you during the week and not have that constant nagging feeling that you're supposed to be doing something when it may not be as urgent as you're kind of making it up to be. So that's one small example. And I still honestly, even to this day in Grace's Now the House, I still use that in my personal life to just make sure I don't feel like I have to tackle things during the week when I'm trying to juggle career and my book things and social life and things. it's still something I practice. The other one is
Hunter (12:06)
I like that.
Sarah Armstrong (12:27)
The concept of decompression zones, and the reason I say this is as we are so scheduled and we have so much going on, but there's a couple of times during the week where I feel like we can reflect on where are we allowed to decompress. One is on Friday evenings. And I always say that at the end of the week, you're exhausted. It's like, how can you with your kids potentially create a space where there's a little decompression before you go into the weekend? We had a family tradition where we actually went, we walked to a little Mexican restaurant down the street with another family and the kids went in one booth, we went another. I swear Grace had more chips and cheese than she probably should have, but it allowed us to just kind of ease into the weekend and not have the pressure of making dinner and all those things. ⁓ And then the other thing is our commutes. A lot of us, mean, depending on the work environment you have set up these days, whether you're a hybrid or going into work, is looking at your commutes as a decompression zone. And instead of lamenting the fact that you might have half an hour, 45 minutes, maybe an hour, whatever the timeframe is, but looking at that's your time. And even if you're driving, put on music, do something that you enjoy, call a friend. I always use my commutes during Grace's growing up here is to call friends and catch up, because that was when I, in the morning, right after carpool, I'd call, it was like carpool drop off and call a friend as I drove into the office, because it was my time to do something for me. Instead of lamenting like, oh, I now have to commute this whatever period of time. So I think it's how we use our time in those moments to give some energy back to yourself in terms of the things that allow you to feel like you're not quote unquote, just being a mom and just working.
Hunter (14:19)
Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break.
Sarah Armstrong (16:41)
Yeah, it's a great question. just spoke to a mom, mom who's working full time from home, and she and I were talking about this topic, and she said, you know what? At the end of the day, I actually say to my kids, I'll be right back. And she says she goes outside, and she literally stays in the yard, but she's like, I just need to step away and have a couple minutes that's just going from me being in work mode to turning and going into mom mode. And so she said, I've created that as a routine, and the kids know. She goes, doesn't matter if it's cold out. She says, I go outside because I just need a little bit of space. I need to create that space. And so I think it's for everyone to figure out what that looks like ⁓ in your day to day. But I do think parents that are working from home and have to context switch so quickly from being in work mode to being in parenting mode, figuring out is there a little bit of a buffer you can provide yourself, even if it's within the home, to allow yourself a little bit of time. Because it is a lot to go from one to the other so quickly.
Hunter (17:38)
I like that about going outside, like just walk up and down your driveway around your yard if you have one, you're in an apartment building. Go just walk out the front door and take 10 deep breaths and go back in, right? Like, and maybe don't do anything consciously, try to just be present during that time. Yeah.
Sarah Armstrong (17:45)
Thank you.
Sarah Armstrong (17:59)
Be present, yeah, yeah, and just have a moment. And I think that's a lot of times, going back to the concept of guilt, I think we feel guilty giving ourselves those moments that we so need to kind of reset and be ready for whatever we're needed to do next.
Hunter (18:15)
Yeah, mean, taking that time, you know, my daughter, it's interesting, and people, people feel guilty for taking that time for ourselves. But I remember, you know, when my daughter was little, I, one of the essential habits for me was exercise, right? Like I need to move. I'm just an active person. I really need to move. And so I took her to the childcare at the YMCA and she hated the childcare at points. And like when she was a baby, like the first time I went, they came and got me in 10 minutes. And I was like, God, this sucks. And I could see how a lot of people then would be like, my gosh, my child doesn't like this. I can't do it. You know, I have to, you know, make sure they're comfortable and, you know, supported and all that. And that's really a lovely point of view. But you're human and you have needs. And if you can't get those needs met, like you're going to be a terrible parent, right? Like I needed my resources available to parent this like intense.
I took her back to child care the next day. They came and got me in 15 minutes. The next day it was 10. Eventually she figured out that she was going to survive this hour where she didn't like 20 minutes. And it was fine. And I was like, I'm sorry, don't like, when she got old enough to speak, I'd be like, yeah, I know, you don't like, I'm sorry. Just read a book for, and I, we gotta, I gotta take care of my body. And that, her having to have one hour of her life where she was not totally, perfectly pleased was essential.
Sarah Armstrong (19:51)
Yeah, and honestly, Hunter, the fact that you stuck with that is really important because I think our kids need to know they're obviously a huge priority for us, but they have to also know that they fit into a life of a collection of individuals in their family and maybe not everything is all about them every minute of the day and that they can adjust to that. And I do think that that's a really important lesson to teach at a very young age because if you don't, it can come up in other ways down the road. In terms of how they view, you know, how they fit into the world.
Hunter (20:26)
I know it is interesting because we're walking a middle path now, back in a long time ago, right? Like it was just about obedience and bending to the parents will and, you know, that had a lot of challenges and there was a lot of problems with that. we swung away from that, but we can swing too far, you know, where we're not getting the parents needs met. And then you do end up with kids who do feel entitled to just have everything go their way. And that's, I mean, yes, we should, you know, be there and not make them feel bad for having, ⁓ you know, upset feelings and things like that. But also like they, it's okay for them to be unhappy sometimes.
Sarah Armstrong (21:07)
It is okay. that's, think that there's ⁓ resilience that comes with learning how to get through those moments where it might not be exactly their choice. Yeah. But they do learn. They do learn. That's true.
Hunter (21:18)
That's true. Okay. What role do partnerships, whether it's like a spouse, a co-parent or support network, what role do these partnerships play in successfully managing the juggling in?
Sarah Armstrong (21:31)
Yeah, well, I think it's one of the most important things you can figure out in your life is what is the support network you need to actually live the life you want to live. And I've actually lived both married and as a single working parent. So I've had both scenarios. And for us, it was a combination. had a very willing co-parent in my life and raising Grace with my husband and the next husband. And then we also did have a nanny that we depended on, actually multiple nannies over the course of Grace's life. And that was something that we needed partly because of how much we both traveled. I traveled internationally for my job and my ex-husband traveled domestically. we needed that, you know, in our family, in fairness, was around the country and not in the city where we were raising Grace. So I think that figuring out what that support network looks like for you, and it's different for every family, and then...
Also recognizing that what you put in place in the beginning of your child's life will probably have the needs will evolve over the course of time. So don't feel the pressure that you have to sort it out and have it in place for forever. It's going to change. And then you can adjust as you need to based on your needs, based on your child's needs. I kind of joke, Grace, by the end of her high school years, I still had a nanny that would come to the house even though Grace was driving and fully self-sufficient, quite honestly.
But I didn't want her coming home to an empty house. I didn't like that concept. And she used to joke that the nanny was for me. And I said, actually, at this point, she kind of is, because the nanny transitioned from being about all of Grace's needs to more of what I needed done in terms of running to the UPS store or the dry cleaner, whatever the case. So taking on more of maybe a house manager type role. So I do think it's a matter of figuring out what is the support system you need as a working parent at the various stages of your child's life and being a bit unapologetic about the fact that those are needs you need met so that you can do both sides of this life that you're trying to manage. And one of the things, Hunter, that I have reflected on is we go to school to learn about a lot of things, but we don't go to school to learn how to parent. And then we also don't go to school to learn how to manage our careers. And then we're trying to do both at the same time. And that they're two of the most important things we're going to do. And so the support network aspect of it is you do have to figure it out as you go along because there's no one that has really defined what that looks like for you.
Hunter (24:05)
You mightnot have mentors above you, especially if you're female or a person of color in a big corporate office, like you might not have mentors to just show you the ropes.
Sarah Armstrong (24:15)
Right, absolutely. it's not even in the corporate world, a lot of people, this isn't something that's discussed a lot in terms of how you're meant to do these two things. I mean, there's a lot about how you can do your role and how you're doing in your role. But I think how you manage your career and your home life as a parent and how that combination comes together is something. And that's why I feel so passionate about sharing some thoughts on this after reflecting on it for about so many years because I think it's one of the most important things we do, but it's something that we haven't necessarily been raised to think about in that combination and how they go together.
Hunter (24:48)
Yeah, I mean, it is a lot to manage. mean, a home itself, there's so much administrative tasks beyond just like childcare. Like there's so many administrative tasks. And if you're a woman, oftentimes like you may have found, by default, the school calls only you, the doctor's office calls only you. And you're like, wait a second, how did this happen? You may, and I do recommend, to your listener that you actively change that, have a conversation with your parenting partner if you have one and say, hey, would you like a school or like the doctors, like as the two big categories and just like take one of those ⁓ on. And yeah, but then you think about your whole career and things like that. I I appreciate you sharing that you had a nanny, you had a number of nannies. And I think if you have the resources for that, if you have like a high powered career, That makes a lot of sense. A lot of people again, feel guilty or they feel ashamed because of the whole like idealized mother role that exists out there. But I think it's so important to say like, this is incredibly hard. There's a lot to juggle- to have somebody else juggling some of it for parts of the time.
Sarah Armstrong (26:05)
Absolutely. again, going back to that feeling and some of the societal expectations that have been put on all of us, that whether it's a nanny or daycare or a family friend that helps out that we all need to be able to ask for help and not feel guilty about that or feel judged that for some reason because we're asking for help, we're not being the best parent we can be. But I do think that there's, again, going back to your point, there's some societal perception of having to ask for help somehow shows that you're not doing the full job.
Hunter (26:39)
I mean, I would say even if you're a stay at home mom, like you should be asking for help. they, I recently saw, like they did some study on like how much a stay at home value, a stay at home mom is bringing in now. And it's like $120,000 a year of stuff. Like if you're cooking and cleaning and doing all the different things. When I was young, a young mom, and I at the time was working on, I was working on a series of paintings of artwork that I was showing at a- I had a show and anyway, so I had, had a, help, had a, this was like such a cool hack. felt like I got a local homeschooled kid. She was 12 years old at the time. She was so great. She would come with a bag of books. She was, she was a really exceptional person. I really feel like she's going to be present someday, but she would come.
And my husband would be working from his home office. I would be working in my home place. So like we were there and I would just take my child, put her in the like ergo baby carrier and say, take my child for a walk. And then she would stay for three hours, however many days a week. And it was like, hallelujah. You know, and I wasn't technically, I wasn't working full time, but you know, even if you're not working full time, I feel like everybody needs some support. The job of especially very small children is so big. It's just too much for one person to be with tiny children 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
Sarah Armstrong (28:07)
Absolutely, no, and I think we all need our breaks. I mean, we all need to build in time that allows us to feel like we are not just doing one thing, whether it's just being a parent or just working or just doing the accommodation. We absolutely need to recognize that in order for us to live the fullest life possible, we need to build in things that allow us to get the kind of recharging we need to keep going. And so not feeling guilty about that I think is really important.
Hunter (28:37)
What do you see as the most important recharging things? When I give talks to people, I often give people a little self-care mini assessment and we talk about sleep, time in nature, time with family and friends and exercise. I don't know, what would you say? Do you agree with that?
Sarah Armstrong (28:57)
I definitely agree with those three and I'd say the fourth one if I were to throw one in is massage. And I know that that's a luxury, but I think that the combination of those three plus when on occasion you can build a massage that just helps get all the toxins out and allows you to truly give yourself a gift of an hour that you wouldn't typically give yourself. think that would be my fourth bonus of the three that you listed, which are absolutely fundamental to a given day and week.
Hunter (29:29)
Yeah, sometimes when I think like if I had to give up, you know, exercise or meditation, what would it be? You know, it's like an odd question. I probably would probably would have to be as much as I, my mindfulness practice has helped every part of my life. Like I would not be able to live without exercising.
Sarah Armstrong (29:46)
no, yeah. I think moving our bodies to your point earlier is fundamental. I think it does, for me, I walk a lot and I think walking is one of the most healing things you can do and just allows you to clear your brain. whether, in fairness, early days, Grace was in the jog stroller with me and I'd walk and, know, into your point out in nature. And then when she was older, I'd go walk and she was fine at home. But I do think having the ability to get out and do something that is kind of physically active. It also really helps you mentally and emotionally as well.
Hunter (30:19)
Yeah, and that walking habit can catch. My daughters are really into hiking, so it's really nice.
Sarah Armstrong (30:25)
Good, see there you go, there you go.
Hunter (30:28)
How can companies better support working parents? What changes would you love to see in workplace culture to help employees thrive at home and at work?
Sarah Armstrong (30:37)
You know, I think it's interesting because I do think many companies are working on how to be as supportive for working parents as possible. I think one of the things, it comes down to more individual ⁓ relationships within the work environment to understand that I call it a transference of hours, that if you trust an individual that they're going to get their job done, it may not be in the traditional hours of a nine to five day.
And so understanding how people are getting their work done and just appreciating that if you set goals of what they need to do, then how they get it and which hours they might do that in might be slightly different. ⁓ The other thing, and it's more of a tactical thing, but it's one that I've really enjoyed over the recent past is, you know, I, because of my own work and the demands of it, a lot of my work may be in the evenings, but I don't expect just because I'm working evenings, my team should be responding to my emails. So I do a lot of schedule send. So I will work in the evenings and the emails I get come in at 8 a.m. the next morning. And again, I'm not expecting them to respond right at 8 a.m. but that's when I figure if you're starting in the morning and you want to know what I've responded to, that's what's going to show up. And so I think it's also about figuring out if you're managing a team, how do you help support people not feeling like they're tied to checking their email at night?
Because they know that you might, they might have sent you something and they're wondering, okay, did the response come through? And so I'm very, very systematic about that. And I try to really respect that that's when people then can expect my response and not feel like it's gonna come out. If there's something urgent, obviously we handle it as needed, but that's one of the things that I think is helpful just on a tactical level as a leader and helping teams that have families and are trying to juggle both.
Hunter (32:27)
Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break.
I think there are laws about this in France, That you're not, that workplaces aren't allowed to email. France, man. It's amazing. Would you encourage managers to say that explicitly? Like, let's not do work email after six o'clock or whatever. Please schedule your send to do it in work hours, as long as everything's not urgent.
Sarah Armstrong (34:08)
Yeah, I think it's just a matter of figuring out what are the norms for your team that you can, if you have a lot, I have a lot of young parents on my team. And so it's figuring out how can we both set the high bar of expectation for what it takes to work in a large global company and what's required there. And on the flip side of that, how can we try to respect that, ⁓ you know, we need to be able to carve out the time for what we're trying to do in our personal life, whether you have kids or not, by the way, and whether you have a family or not, just your personal life outside of working hours. And so I do feel that things like Schedule Send or talking about your ways of working and your operating principles are something that I try to do very actively with my team. And so that we're all just clear on how we wanna operate together. So I think it's more about the conversation that you need to have and figuring out what are those things you wanna put in place as a team. And for different teams and different types of businesses, different types of industries that may be going to have to take on a slightly different nuance, but I think it's more about having the conversation, figuring out what works for that specific.
Hunter (35:32)
Well then I guess like on the flip side, if you're a working parent and you maybe are working in a place that doesn't have quite the same boundaries that you have and people want to have, want to set some boundaries, do you have some realistic ways parents can establish and enforce those boundaries without hurting their careers?
Sarah Armstrong (35:53)
Yes, yeah, I'm a big, first of all, I'm a big believer in setting boundaries. And I think it's one of the things that in the first thing, though, the first principle of setting boundaries is first you have to tell people around you that the boundaries exist. Because no one can respect a boundary they don't know exists and they will walk right over it if they haven't been told that there's a boundary that you're trying to set for yourself. And so that's the first thing is figuring out what you want your boundaries to be. And then sharing with those around you both within the workplace, on the family front, across the board. Because once everyone understands, okay, that's what you're trying to do, then they can either help you. Now, if they step over the boundary, you can acknowledge and say, you know, that's not gonna work for me. But it's first being able to communicate that the boundary exists. And actually, just an example is, you know, during my time of raising Grace, my calendar said Grace time, from six to eight p.m. And so that was her time. And my assistant on occasion would say, hey, and so wants to talk to you at 6.30. said, I can talk to them at 8.30, can talk at 8.00 p.m. or 9.00 p.m. I could talk to them at 8 a.m. tomorrow morning after carpool. But 6 to 8 is Grace's time, unless it was absolutely urgent. And again, urgency is relative depending on the types of roles you play and your career. But I was very protective of that time because Grace only only got a couple hours of my day for she and I to be together. And I didn't want it interrupted by phone calls that other people felt were urgent, but maybe I didn't feel were urgent. And so that was a tactical example, but something that everyone knew it said grace time on my calendar. My calendar was open for people to see, and that's how I tried to manage it. So it was really very much an intentional thing I did in terms of trying to protect my time with her.
Hunter (37:37)
love that. You know, just that carved out up time for us or downtime and just protecting that on your calendar makes so much sense.
Sarah Armstrong (37:40)
Absolutely. Yeah, and Hunter, the other thing is not just the time itself, but the other important thing is I also had a cupboard in the back of my house. Now, I did commute to an office and then come home, but when I walked in the door, my laptop and my whole tote bag, everything work-related, went into this cupboard, and it was out of sight. And the reason I think that's so important is so many of us might take our laptop and put it on the kitchen counter or put it on the dining room table or whatever the case, even if it's closed.
Hunter (38:02)
Wow.
Sarah Armstrong (38:15)
those little machines talk to us, right? They're kind of pulling us in. And so I really believe that having your work computer, your work phone out of sight for those couple hours that you're trying to give focus and present time with your children is so important. And so I really felt strongly about not having Grace see my work laptop. And so it was really, now I appreciate those parents that work from home and have home offices or work from the kitchen table, which is what I did during COVID when I didn't have a home office. Those are situations where you have to decide, okay, if it's going to always be in the home, how do you then create space where it's not constantly drawing you in and thinking about what that looks like? everyone's physical situation is different of how their house is set up and how they live and work. But it is something really to think about because those computers really do pull us in and sometimes they need to be set aside.
Hunter (39:16)
I hadn't thought about that and I think that's great. the computer could be. You also, you have a chapter on recharging your battery. I just want to end with this and I loved, I liked how you said it's important for you to be able to go away for a night, a weekend, even a week without your children. So tell us about this.
Sarah Armstrong (39:21)
So I have a fundamental belief that one of the best things you can do is go away. again, the amount of time is for you to decide, but to go away and ensure your children early on, when they're very young, that mommy and daddy go away and mommy and daddy come back. And not have it be this huge deal, because I think the longer you wait to introduce that as a concept and actually as a practice, the harder it is for parents to go away- again for a day, a weekend, a week, and not have it be this traumatic event for your children. And so I just think that earlier and younger you can do it, the more it just is normal. The mom goes on a business trip, she goes away, she goes away for weekend, she comes back. And so Grace, I I was traveling internationally and domestically, both professionally and personally, her whole life, and not once did she cry, not once did she say, mommy, don't go. It was just like, okay, mommy, bye. And then I'd come back because, we had normalized it so early in her life that it wasn't this big deal.
Hunter (40:41)
Probably had multiple secure attachment figures, right? Because you had other other people in her life. So it's it's okay, right?
Sarah Armstrong (40:50)
Absolutely, absolutely. wasn't she was left with her dad or her nanny or, know, sometimes we had family friends that would watch her, my parents would come in town. So multiple people, lots of different people that could come and stay with her and she adjusted to that. So I do think that's part of it too, to your point is normalizing that aspect of who your children are left with so that they feel comfortable with that period of time as well. But I think the reason that's so important is the recharging you need as a parent sometimes needs to happen away from your children and not just for the hour we were talking about going for a walk or the hour massage or whatever the case is, it's actually going away. And by the way, it doesn't need to be about getting on a flight. It could be to the next town. It could be in your town. Just you do a little staycation nearby. But it's just about giving yourself some space to recharge. And I really feel that's fundamental to the long parenting life we have- especially for the core 18 years. They continue once they go off to college, but it's different. But I think for those years, especially in the early years when the children need so much of us, that we give ourselves that gift of time to recharge.
Hunter (41:57)
I couldn't agree more. think that's incredibly helpful. I feel like sometimes I worry that, you know, if you feel like your child needs you so much, you know, and that's of course our children need us, of course. But, you know, it is so helpful for them to be with other people and with them that might also be something to examine in ourselves, right? Like, why do I need to be needed this much? Right? Like, can I? Can I have that space? And so then maybe it's even more important to explore that. And it's interesting, like even as you get to be teenagers, we have a friend who has a teenage son and he's, you know, a competent teenage son. And sometimes he feels like he can't go and do things because he has to be available just in case something happens for this competent teenage son. it's true, like things happen sometimes. Like my husband, went to Philadelphia, just like, the closest city and we had an overnight, we had a hotel, we were going out, we had, and we sat down in hotel bar. We had two drinks in our hands when we got a bunch of text messages that my daughter had leaving her work had maybe, I guess she had gotten in an accident or not a minor accident where she like hit the car wheel and maybe the wheel got popped- can't remember. think the wheel got popped anyway. She was 10 minutes away from our house, but she couldn't drive home. We were away 45 minutes away in the city, just sitting down and drinks. What’s nice about, what was nice about that situation is that showed me the power of the community. We called our friend, we called our neighbor. Hey Ben, you, my stock in this facility, can you pick her up? Yes, of course I could pick her up. He goes and picks her up. It's no big deal. And so sometimes I feel like we're too- we forget that we're interdependent and we don't want to like, we're so against like, each other and relying on each other. And I think that's actually a beautiful thing that we can do for each other.
Sarah Armstrong (44:05)
Yes, absolutely. I think that that's, I do think that it's one of the things you learn over the course of time is that people do want to, if you ask for help, there are people that absolutely would help and would, you know, would then you can reciprocate that down the road as well. You know, it goes both ways. And I had a similar thing. was in London on a business trip and I got a call from Grace's school. There was a flood and they're like, you need to come get her. I was like, I'm probably not coming to get her, but her nanny will be there as quickly as she is. So I texted the nanny and said, to your point, mom got the call. I got the call that there was a flood. But it's just those moments where you just have to say, I can't be there, but there will be someone that's there and it's OK. And we all adjust to those moments.
Hunter (44:50)
Yeah. Yeah. This has been lovely talking to Sarah. Sarah's book is “The Art of the Juggling Act: A Bite-Size Guide for Working Parents”, and it's everywhere books are sold. Is there anything that we missed that you'd like to share with the listener?
Sarah Armstrong (45:10)
You know, I just think the final thought is that I so appreciate that the Juggling Act is hard and a lot of young parents are trying to, quote-unquote, survive in the day-to-day. And I just really hope that, you know, my goal with writing this book is just to pay it forward to the next generation of working parents and hopefully help everyone think a little bit about their day-to-day juggling act and maybe shift from surviving to thriving. And that would be the goal.
Hunter (45:37)
Yeah, that would be good for you and good for you.
Sarah Armstrong (45:40)
Yes, exactly. Everyone is a little bit happier, I think, if we can be feeling that we're thriving.
Hunter (45:47)
Well, thank you so much, Sarah. It's been a real pleasure to talk to you.
Sarah Armstrong (45:50)
Thanks so much Hunter, really appreciate being on.
Hunter (45:55)
I hope you enjoyed this episode. ⁓ If you're a working parent, we've got some things for you here at Mindful Mama Mentor. have some ways that we can support working parents and programs that you can bring to the HR of your company and bring some mindful parenting programs to you. If you're interested in that, just reach out at Support@MindfulMamaMentor.com.
I'm wishing you a great week. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for being here. Part of the mindful mama community. And that's all I got for you today. Peace out y'all and I will see you next week. Namaste.
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