Yshai Boussi, LPC is a family therapist specializing in adolescents and young adults. He is the author of Staying Connected With Your Teen: Polyvagal Parenting Strategies to Reduce Conflict Set Limits and Build Authentic Connection. Ysha is also the parent of a 15 year-old daughter and 11 year-old son.
509: Polyvagal Parenting Strategies
Yshai Boussi
Find out what is Polyvagal theory and how it can help you and your child go from shut down and dysregulated to calm, connected, and joyful. Yshai Boussi talks to Hunter about the 3 nervous system states as well as how to balance mental health with things like chores!
Ep 509- Polyvagal Parenting Strategies
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*This is an auto-generated transcript*
[00:00:00] Yshai Boussi: Pain isn't just about what happens to us, it's also what we didn't get that we needed. And for all my parents for all the love they had for me, there were some things that they really were not able to give me, they didn't know how to provide.
[00:00:16] Hunter: You're listening to the Mindful Parenting Podcast, episode number 509. Today, we're talking about polyvagal parenting strategies with Yshai Boussi.
Welcome to the Mindful Parenting Podcast. Here, it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. In mindful parenting, we know that you cannot give what you do not have, and when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clarke-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course and teacher training, and I'm the author of the international bestseller, Raising Good Humans Every Day, and the Raising Good Humans Guided Journal.
Hello and welcome. Welcome back. If you're a frequent listener, big welcome to you. If you're a new listener, This is an awesome episode for you to jump into. I'm going to be talking to Yshai Boussi, a family therapist specializing in adolescents and young adults. He's the author of “Staying Connected with Your Teen: Polyvagal Parenting Strategies to Reduce Conflict and Set Limits and Build Authentic Connection”. Yshai is also the parent of a 15 year old daughter and 11 year old son. And now, if you have little kids, don't run away because These episodes about teenagers are always so important for parents for little kids because you learn about these habits and patterns that you need to start young to really create connection and things like that. So make sure you stay and you listen. But then maybe especially if you have a tween or a teen too, or if you have a friend who's a teen or tween, Texas episode to them now, because you're going to find out what is polyvagal theory and how it can help you and your child go from shut down and dysregulated to calm, connected and joyful. We talk about the three nervous system states as well as how to balance mental health with things like chores. So this is a really great episode. He has so much insight. I really enjoyed connecting with Isha and I know you are going to get so much out of this too.
Before we dive in, I want to let you know that the “Raising Good Humans Guided Journal” is out and this is such a great piece. I love it so much. It has so All this great writing space for you to explore your parenting values and challenge negative habits you've learned from your parents is really a lovely space to put pen to paper, gold fashioned. And I find that I just get more insight that way. So get your copy, maybe get a copy for a friend. “Raising Good Humans Guided Journal”. It's a perfect companion to “Raising Good Humans”. It helps you do the work. So anywhere books are sold, you can find it. And now, join me at the table as I talk to Yshai Boussi. Yshai, thank you so much for coming on the Mindful Parenting podcast. I'm so glad you're here.
[00:03:20] Yshai Boussi: Thank you for having me. It really is a pleasure to be here.
[00:03:23] Hunter: I'm excited to talk about teenagers and staying connected with your teens. It's it's perfect for today because, the listener, you hear all the conversations all in different orders. But as far as in my life goes, I just talked to Dr. Gordon Neufeld, who's talking about hold on to your teens. And now we're going to talk about staying connected to your teen. So this is so ideal for me. I'm so ready for it. But before we get into talking about that I would love to talk a little bit about you. Sometimes we get into this because, just curiosity. Sometimes we're reacting against something that may have happened in our own childhood. How are you raised and what was your childhood like?
[00:04:02] Yshai Boussi: Yeah. So I was I grew up in Portland. I was actually, I was born in Israel, but came to Portland when I was just under two. So spent my life here where I still live. And would say, generally speaking, I had a, what you would say on paper, a really good childhood. It was, I was safe. I, my parents adored me. Loved me, gave, lots of, my dad in particular, spent lots of time with me. And all those things so on paper I would say it was really good. What I've learned later in life, what was hard, so my parents did divorce when I was 11. And I, but I had a rough go of it in middle school and high school. I did experience some bullying here and there. And I was a kid who was I was extremely sensitive. We talk about the highly sensitive kids: I was one of those.
[00:04:57] Hunter: Oh yeah.
[00:04:57] Yshai Boussi: Yeah, I struggled with sleepovers. I would get stomach aches and want to go home. A thing. And I would just get really flooded and overwhelmed easily. And this was back. Yeah. And the late eighties, mid late eighties. Where we didn't have the information. So I just thought I always felt like an outsider and I didn't fit in and why am I getting overwhelmed and other people aren't, and I had a hard time making friends and keeping friends. And so I, I felt like I was on the outside looking in and just wanting to be popular and cool and fit in. And I played basketball in high school, like that was some, I was a little bit taller. It was something I was drawn to in middle school and I loved, I just, but it was also a way for me to, and in a little bit to try to accept it. But it was always, it was a journey of wanting to feel accepted, and struggling to find an identity that worked for me feeling different a little bit in a way that I didn't really know why and not wanting to be different. And it really took later in looking back, reflecting for the longest time even in grad school, I would look back on my childhood, I would hear about other people's childhoods, right? And they would share stories that were just, there was a lot of trauma and a lot of pain or domestic violence and these hard things.
And I would just think, Oh my gosh, like I had such a great childhood, I have nothing to complain about. Like it was, My parents loved me and even though they did divorce, but they had the ideal amicable relationship. Like my dad had a key to the house. He was over all the time. I saw him some ways more than my mom cause she was a working mom. She worked a lot. So you almost wouldn't know they were divorced a thing. So I was very lucky as I've learned about myself and went to therapy and grew. I, and I think this does inform how I work. I realized, pain isn't just about what happens to us. It's also what we didn't get that we needed. And for all my parents, like how much, for all the love they had for me, there were some things that they really were not able to give me, they didn't know how to provide in terms of attunement, empathy. I never really felt seen. They focused on grades. They focused on. A future of being successful, going to college, and I'm grateful for some of those expectations, for sure. But in terms of my inner world, it was very, I was very alone with it. There was a lot of shame and fear and feeling like, what's wrong with me and not liking myself. And I just had this real, this inner world that it took me to my late 20s, early 30s to unpack. And I'm still working on it. Some of these parts that-
[00:07:30] Hunter: Sure
[00:07:30] Yshai Boussi: -were never seen as a kid.
[00:07:32] Hunter: Yeah. It's so interesting because it's like that their love for you may come out in this form of “I'm critical of you so that you can be, good. And I want you to do all these things. So I'm going to focus all the things you're not doing well, so you can do them well, so you can be successful in the world.” But that, especially having just focused, had these conversations about attachment, it sounds like that warmth was really, that feeling of being seen. That's critical to say, you see me, you hear me, you, I'm with you, you're on my side, all that stuff. It's what I'm hearing.
[00:08:08] Yshai Boussi: Yeah. And it was really a generation. I think it was, that was not a common thing, that, that generation. My mom, grew up in foster care, actually, which is very interesting. And so she, so I think just some of the attachment stuff that she had and, and then my dad, just an immigrant came here at 28 years old English as a second language from my family on that side is from Yemen and there was just a lot of that assimilation, that desired, the immigrant story that's very common is wanting me to assimilate, wanting me to, fit in and do well and achieve and all those things. Which all seemed normal at the time, right? Like until like you learn something different and then you see, oh, there is another way of being, there is more going on here.
[00:08:47] Hunter: Yeah, yeah, it really, it just goes to show I'm just thinking about how like our own as parents, yeah. The best thing we can offer our kids is us being grounded secure at ease, at peace, and just all these demons that are, that come from generations and ancestors and all these patterns of, it just, that matter so much. So enormously.
[00:09:10] Yshai Boussi: I don't know. And it gets so tricky. It's so much harder. And that's why we need to keep learning and reflecting because it's like we know the stuff, but then sometimes it's so hard to do in the moment with our own kids.
[00:09:19] Hunter: Yeah. Yeah. And so what made you want to work with teenagers? Sounds like this experience led right to that.
[00:09:27] Yshai Boussi: Totally. So that's the deeper part, right? Like the unconscious draw on the surface. It was. It found me. I was actually a business major in college and then I got a corporate job working in retail for a large as a buyer for a large department store chain. And I just met somebody casually. I was like 23 and we were just talking and she was like, Hey, I'm falling. I was looking for something else to do other than work, to volunteer, get involved in the community. That's always been a core piece of me of wanting to give back or help or, contribute to making the world better. And so she was like, I'm involved in this mentoring program and we actually have a volunteer meeting next week. And it was just a spontaneous thing. And I was like, Oh, that sounds interesting. It was mentoring at risk youth that were like 13 years old. And I was like, sure, why not? Maybe I'm, might be interesting.
And so I just on a whim, like just went and I was just really, it was very interesting. It was very involved and and or well organized and it just spoke to me. So I like committed to this one year volunteer program where as a mentor you go through weekend intensive trainings and learn about yourself and personal development stuff and then how to work with these youth and their families and all this stuff. And I just learned so much. And I was like, it was the community and the. It turned out that I was pretty good at connecting with young people. So I was like, this is really interesting. It's really fun. I'm good at it. I think I want to do more of this. I don't know how I'll make a living, but I'll figure that out later. And so then I just went down that path. There, I was just really drawn out, like you said as I, when I, reflect and I really, and I go a little deeper, it's yeah, I'm I really think that a lot of my work is about healing some of my own pain, like my loneliness when I was a kid. It's almost like every time I connect with a young person or a family, I'm like connecting with that part of me, that little boy who wants to feel seen, wants to feel heard. And so being able to offer that to others feels meaningful.
[00:11:21] Hunter: Are teenagers more disconnected now? It really seems like it from my perspective. I have two teenage girls now, 14 and 17, and even they have friends and stuff like that, but they're they're not- I don't know. I remember like being in the kitchen closet with that long phone cord, talking for hours and hours, just having these long intensive conversations, having a lot of, I never wanted to, if I had to, if I, to be home on the weekend was just you know, is okay, I'm, now I'm feeling really sad and miserable if I'm home at least I'll, get, connect with other people. I'm not seeing it. It seems like their world with the mediation of the phone. is this seems like it's really disconnecting them. Is that what you're seeing with teens?
[00:12:17] Yshai Boussi: I think I see both. I think it's a mixed bag. I think there are, for some kids, I think the phones are adding to deeper connection. I actually do think, I think it's not all good or bad. I think there are ways for some kids, they are still finding that connection And in fact, a lot of, this is the upside, I think for some kids, the discourse is more around, they're talking about mental health, they're talking about wanting to connect. There are kids who are like, we should, we want to hang out in person, we want to put our phones away and and they're valuing that and they're making plans, they're using their phones to make plans together and things like that. I do think that happens for sure. What I worry about are the kids who, like who I would have been like, where they struggle a little bit more with connecting naturally. Maybe it's social anxiety or maybe it's just some other developmental challenges. And so the phones and devices. They make that just so incredibly easy to go deeper into disconnection, to like lean into a virtual relationship. It's just so much easier to avoid in person relationships. So I worry about the ones who are on the edge, who could go either way. And who can really get lost in overly dependent being overly dependent on sort of superficial connections that are all online or mostly online.
[00:13:42] Hunter: Stay tuned for more Mindful Parenting podcasts right after this break.
I appreciate you presenting a balanced view because, yeah, like anything, sometimes I think, oh my God, it's like destroying our kids lives, but that, like anything, it's got its upsides and it's got its downsides and, I've heard that, like that kids are, more aware and navigating in some ways better than sometimes like even older generations are getting lost in things like that. But your book, “Staying Connected with Your Teen, Polyvagal Parenting Strategies to Reduce Reactivity, Set Limits, and Build Authentic Connection”, it talks about obviously parenting strategies grounded in polyvagal theory. So tell us what is polyvagal theory and why this is so crucial to what you're doing.
[00:15:12] Yshai Boussi: Yes I know it's a mouthful. It's not the most accessible term. But we had to put it in the subtitle at least. I didn't want to have it in the title. But but it's, it really is groundbreaking. It's changed my life personally. It's helped me help clients in a whole nother way. So basically what it is it's a model for thinking about how our nervous system interacts with the world, how we, our nervous system affects the way we think about ourselves, about others, and about the world. That's essentially what it is. And what's really powerful about it is, so we have three pathways, three states that we all experience. That comes from our nervous system. We're and you can think of this as a hierarchy or or I use a metaphor of a ladder, which is something that comes from Deb Dana, who's, a researcher who's is colleagues with Stephen Porges is the founder of this model. He discovered this model and Deb Dana is his colleague. And so she made this very popular. It's an incredibly popular model among therapists. Most therapists understand and use this and working and helping people. So I'm excited to bring this to just regular everyday people, this thinking. So the math, so the model of the ladder metaphor means that, so we have three states.
I call them at the bottom rungs of the ladder are shut down. And that's that state. We know it when we're in it. It's We're disconnected. We're withdrawn. Maybe we're just meh. I color coded my mind. I think of it as a blue state. It could be depression. It could be mild depression. It could just be that sort of it's more a kind of immobilized low energy state. As we move up the ladder, the second state is it's a little more, it's more activated. So this is referred to sometimes as a sympathetic state. So this is where there's adrenaline and cortisol where anxiety might live. We're mobilized, we're active. It's we're, we see it with kids are fidgety or they're angry or we're just really, it's an activated state and fight, flight, freeze. And as we move up the ladder, the top rungs of the ladder, the third state that we all experience is a regulated state.
And that's that state when we feel. Again, we know it when we're in it, we're, we feel calm, peaceful, connected joyful, maybe excited, happy, all those good things that we all want to feel. So all of us experience these states. This is our nervous system. Our nervous system is our first responder, is what's paying attention to the world. The term is, for this, is neuroception. You and I right now under our nervous systems are responding to each other more so in some ways than just our words and our language. We're picking up on our backgrounds, on our tone of voice, on our facial expressions. That's how we communicate with other people. And with parenting, this feels so helpful. This was so helpful to me. And it's helpful, I think, for other parents to under, to think about Our kids are responding to us from their nervous system first, not their thoughts and perception. And sometimes we can forget that. Like I can forget that. And I'm like talking and talking to my kid.
I'm giving them all this information. Don't you understand? We talked about this. What is. And they're not hearing any of it because their nervous system is responding to my tone of voice, to my intensity, to my body language. And so when we understand about when we can understand like this concept of we connect through our nervous system. And that our ultimate goal is to help our kids get better at regulating and moving up the ladder. And some of us have kids that live more in that middle state, that activated state. Some of us have kids who are more in that shutdown state. And so how do the real question is, how do we help our kids get more regulated? Because only from that place of regulation, Can we actually connect? We can fake it, we can pretend, but our kids are deer in the headlights sometimes, and it's not because they don't care, it's not because they're lazy. When our kids are shut down, it can seem like they're not trying, or they're lazy, but they can't, their nervous system is immobilized. And so when we just try harder and harder, it can be very frustrating. as a parent, because we think they just need to do it. But when we understand that it's not it's not that they're trying to get out of something or being manipulative or lazy. It's They are in shutdown. And so we want to think about how to help them move up and get more regulated and help them learn to be regulated more of the time, which is the name of the game. And I just found that super helpful.
[00:19:49] Hunter: Yeah. Yeah. This is a very helpful way of thinking about it. So shut down at the bottom and then it's almost it sounds like a maybe a bell curve or something. You're moving up to activated, like almost too much energy, and then you go down to regulated in some ways as I guess that's my visual thinking about it. As far as like amounts of energy, right? What and Regulated is where we're connecting what can help our kids so then you teach this to teens, you teach this to parents, what do you teach them first as far as moving from shutdown to regulated or from activated to regulated?
How do you go about helping people conceptualize how they could move through these things?
[00:20:37] Yshai Boussi: Yeah, that's a great question. So the first thing I think is awareness. And we parents also have the same nervous system. So I think it's really important that we also recognize where we are. So that, so it's a parallel process and it's always great to learn together. with our kids, it builds credibility and builds trust. So I do a lot of, even though I work with teenagers, I do a lot of family therapy with teenagers and it can be really powerful. And so we're so learning together. So one is just recognizing without judgment, these aren't bad.
None of these are bad. Like they're all protective. They serve a purpose. So we want to be able to learn about recognizing what state we're in without judgment. Oh God, I shouldn't be this way. No, you should. There's a reason that's showing up for you right now. And we need to understand it with empathy and compassion. That's the only way to help move through that state. So it is considered to be a continuum or a hierarchy of states. And so you move through one to get to the next. And so shutdown is the furthest away from regulation. It's like working with someone who's depressed is a lot harder than working with someone who's anxious. Anxiety typically precedes depression. And so we want to move them through those states. And so first is awareness. And then it becomes, as like it's so powerful, sometimes even just knowing what's going on really opens up the door to change. But then when it comes to practical strategies, it's thinking about little ways to work on creating more energy, more mobilized energy, more regulation. And so that's things like coping skills and coping strategies. But from a biological nervous system, polyvagal perspective there are some things that are specifically helpful. So I always recommend, so things like music playing or listening is incredibly helpful for the nervous system. Nature, movement is really, these things are incredibly helpful. These are subconscious. So the autonomic nervous system, it's called that cause it's automatic. These are automatic processes. They just happen. If I'm in the woods and I just see, I'm just hiking and having a beautiful time and a pack of wolves shows up, surrounds me, guess what? I don't have control over what my body does in that moment: it's- we'll see. Knowing myself, I'd probably freeze.
[00:23:02] Hunter: Knowing, yeah, it's like sometimes when there's all this advice of what to do if you see a bear and it's will I be able to implement that thing I heard about what to do?
[00:23:11] Yshai Boussi: Yeah, exactly. Or even remember it. I probably wouldn't even remember it.
[00:23:13] Hunter: You're not even thinking about it in your brain. And I just forgot to mention we're talking about polyvagal theory and we're talking about this because of the vagus nerve, which is the largest nerve, as I understand that goes. Do you want to just explain that piece?
[00:23:28] Yshai Boussi: Totally. So if the autonomic nervous system is I'm going to date myself as Destiny's Child, the vagus nerve is Beyonce. It's a celebrity. That's my generation, Destiny's Child. And so it's famous. It's well, and yeah, I'm glad you brought that up. So the vagus nerve is really the key component. It's it's a K it's basically, it's a cable that goes from our brainstem and it goes down our spinal cord and it has branches and it connects all of our organs to each other. And so it's, it syncs up like our heart and our breathing and all of that. They all go together, right? Our heart rate and our sweat and. our pupils and all these things that digestion all these things that just happen automatically. That's why I called the sometimes the automatic nervous system because this is the part and it's a fight or flight. It's designed for survival. And so our body is always trying to think about do I need to survive here or not? And so when we can, so the vagus is the central piece of that. And so when we, all these things that I was talking about are about What we want to do is learn how to activate the vagus nerve and so that it can help us. The vagus is how we learn to be calm and we can settle the calming, settle the vagus nerve then we feel more calm. We can slow it down. So activating the vagus is what's really popular. There's even like surgical procedures, vagus nerve stimulators now, but you don't need to do that. All these things we talk, we're talking about now that I talked about in the book are about natural ways that we can activate the vagus nerve, like yoga, nature, movement, like all these things. That's what we're really trying to do is activate the vagus.
[00:25:01] Hunter: You mentioned music, nature, movement. These are all individual sort of things or could be perceived as this way. Would connection be one of the important pieces of activating the vagus nerve and regulating?
[00:25:17] Yshai Boussi: So I'm so glad you said that. So that's the crux of my book, is, so this is the background around the polyvagal stuff but ultimately the number one way, the most important and critical way that we create regulation is through a process called co regulation, which is the fact that we need a regulated other in order to feel regulated. We know this at birth: no one has to learn about that with a baby, they're literally physically connected at birth. This is, this need for a calm, trustworthy other to help us regulate is important through the lifespan. And so co regulation is the number one way we help our kids regulate. We help them live in that more regulated state. So of course it starts with us. And I wanted to talk about this in this book about emphasizing connection because Connection with one for one reason. One thing is we think sometimes teenagers don't need us anymore as parents, and I want to like dispel that, like they absolutely need connection with us as much as ever. It just looks really different. So I want to make that part really clear. And then we want to help them experience more connection in different areas of their life with peers, with other adults, pets can actually be co regulating as well. So that's the good news. You don't have someone. Don't underestimate the power of that dog or cat or we have a bearded dragon at home and sometimes that can even be helpful.
[00:26:51] Hunter: That's funny because my, yeah, my daughter was a big driver. I was getting our dog in January 2020. She'd been asking for so long and I finally, we finally, I finally gave in and we could, we got the dog. Anyway, the dog is. Dr. Sue Johnson talked to me for the podcast and she said, I don't know, I think it was her. She was talking about like how pets are so much or maybe it was someone else dear listener, don't hold me to that. But I was talking about how pets are so much and this dog, she's a pit bull. She is like the most like snugly, connecting, like she just wants to cuddle and play. And then cuddle and and she's so emotionally tuned, which is crazy. She's so much like the daughter that wanted the dog. She's so attuned that like, when we watch a movie, when we watch The Life of Pi with the with the tiger in it, She, and you, and if we get upset in a movie, because there's drama in a movie, she literally climbs on the couch, starts to lick her face, and during the life of Pi, tried to climb onto my husband's shoulders and settle up behind his shoulders. Granted, this is like a 60 pound pit bull. She’s just trying to just like snuggle so close. But anyway, yes, the regulation: she sleeps with my daughter every single night and just that, that, it's so powerful. I'm definitely seeing a pet with a pet.
[00:28:21] Yshai Boussi: Oh my gosh, that’s so sweet.
[00:28:22] Hunter: That's super cute.
[00:28:23] Yshai Boussi: It really does help. It really does. Yeah. I think that's why We love pets so much. Like they, we don't think about it in that term, but it really is just biologically like they're nervous system regulators for sure. Yeah. They're also like, like we have this dog that we're watching for nine months and he is a classic protective watchdog. He sits on the top of our couch looking out the window, which is by our front door. Anytime somebody comes to the door, he's barks. And it's, that's like how our nerve, he's like the external animal embodiment of the nervous system is like looking for cue of danger. And we have to be like, no, it's okay. It's okay. Like how it's gonna be alright. That's just, they're dropping off a package, it's okay. And then he moves on, what about this one? What about this one? We have to, now it's okay. Our nervous systems are like that sometimes, and we have to be like, learned for our kids, very sensitive kids, are like constantly what's that? Kind of like that inner guard dog. And so being able to help them learn to it's going to be okay, it's going to be okay, a lot of these false alarms. So that part, that's interesting as well, like another way to think about that when we're thinking about dogs. It
[00:29:27] Hunter: seems like we almost have, it seems, there's a teen mental health crisis, we all know that, right? And it seems like we almost have more challenges with anxiety and mental health and things like that as we know more about it and in some ways as the world is somewhat safer in some ways like that. Except for, like they, there are, there's of course the planet and the gun crisis. Those are two major things that we have no control over that are really, but in other ways the world is so much safer. Like they, at least in my teen's high school, my older daughter goes to a, public school the most diverse public school in the state of Delaware. And it's, they don't have that many, Fights, like there were tons of fights in my high school. It wasn't like there was like a lot of, it wasn't a huge sense of safety for a lot of people growing up a long time ago. Like you might get, if you've ever watched something like” Stand By Me”, it's like amazing how much like horrible bullying there was like and danger for small children and children of all ages growing up. It almost seems there's more anxiety in some ways as it's safer, but I guess I'm questioning whether it's safer or not now, but I don't know where I'm going with this, but do you, what do you think?
[00:30:41] Yshai Boussi: Like we worry about our kids doing things that like, no one worried about me. Like I walked two miles in fifth grade, no sidewalks, or anything, no phone or anything like that to school, there and back every day. And I would be stressed out if my kids, when they were in fifth grade, Did that nowadays a little bit, it's like the standards have changed, even though objectively it is safer now probably than it was ever before. But I think that is something around that's like a different type of topic, but What social media does is our kids in some ways are safer because they're not out and about as much. They are home more. They're not going out. They're taking longer to get driver license. They're not going to parties as much. They're not drinking as much. They're not having sex as much. All these things.
[00:31:22] Hunter: Way less teen pregnancy, all that stuff.
[00:31:24] Yshai Boussi: So on, in some ways that's a good thing, but then in other ways, They're also like, they're online all the time. So 24/7, they're hearing about the worst of the news. They're hearing about everything. And we, as parents do as well, like if we're really honest, like we're often like, we're hearing about every single, all the shootings, and then we're listening more and more about it, or we're hearing about this crisis, or we're hearing about this problem, or we're hearing about, suicide. And we're hearing about, this. Kidnapping or this happening and and and then we can have our own little echo chamber and then we start to worry and worry about our kids. And because we just have so much more information as well. And so then we can get more anxious as well. So we can project that onto our kids. as well as them taking that on. I think they can go together.
[00:32:16] Hunter: Stay tuned for more Mindful Parenting podcast right after this break.
So we all need these strategies to regulate our nervous system with our teens, okay? And I just want to reiterate, dear listener, music, nature, movement, co regulation so important with our teens and with our kids and of all ages, how do we balance like this wanting to, connect with them. Support their emotional regulation. Have a secure attachment. All of those things. With appropriate expectations for, walk that dog that is barking at the front door. What do you say to parents about that? Are there times if a teen is struggling where you let go of, expectations of chores and things like that and focus on a relationship versus, how do we navigate some of those waters?
[00:34:13] Yshai Boussi: That's such a great question. I always start with a mantra for me that I think is really useful is connection before correction. So it does always start with connection and connection can be little things. It can just be a good morning as simple as that sometimes or a good night. It can be a, thank you for helping and it can be the bigger things and the fun things. So connection is a foundation. Often times when families come to see me, the struggles is they are doing too much correcting and not enough connecting. They're leading with the correction, correct, and which is easy to fall into as a parent, like a trap. We can fall, it's cause you gotta get this done, that done, how's school, wait, your room's a mess. I asked you to try, you didn't do it what if, can you be nicer, blah, blah, blah. And we can fall into that really easily where it's just correct.
So starting with connection first. Now let's say, okay, got it. There's a foundation of connection. And now that to your question, your point, that's really important is what about the expectations? Can we have those? Do we just need to be like buddies? Do we just be nice? And so no, we do need to have all the research shows that high expectations and high connection leads to the best outcomes for kids. And I think particularly when kids are struggling, we need to have expectations of them. And I talk to parents about this all the time and remind them that expectations are actually how we build self esteem in our kids, how we build self confidence. Because what we know as functioning adults is that the degree of resilience and self esteem and confidence that we have, it's generally speaking, it's earned. It's earned from things that we, hard things we worked through, things we've accomplished, things we've done. It's through our failures, it's through our mistakes, and we just hung in there, right? We build, we help our kids develop resilience by having expectations. Now, the tricky part is, how do we do that in a way that matches their abilities, that's reasonable given the circumstances? Because every kid's different, every family's different. In my book, I have a chapter on expectations and I have five see what I call the five C's of expectations to help parents think about how to have appropriate expectations. And so those five C's are core values, clarity, consistency, capacity, and collaboration. So I can just go through those really briefly if that's.
[00:36:33] Hunter: Yeah, please do. I want to know what. Yeah, please.
[00:36:36] Yshai Boussi: Okay. So it starts with core values. What's the why behind this expectation? So it's yes. I want you to clean your room. Am I just doing it because I just have, I need your room to be clean. Cause then I can sleep better at night. That's not going to really land very well, right? If it's grounded in a value of. I think having a clean room, it's a life skill to have. It's gonna have improve your mental health because just having an occasionally organized room is going to help. It's gonna reduce the risk of bugs and ants and things like that. Those are three values, if it's, I want you to turn in your device at nine o'clock at night. Why? What's the value behind it? We value sleep in our family. That's a number one. That's a really high priority.
We value- which is a part of another value- which is mental health. We value being able to engage in offline activities, right? So what's the value behind the expectation? Sometimes when our kids are little, we can get away without doing that because we can just do it because we don't really have to have a reason. But we, with teenagers, It's really important to have a why. They don't have to agree, they don't have to like it, but like when it's grounded and there usually is, we just don't always articulate. So what's the core value behind that expectation? And clarity is important because sometimes we're not clear. It's yeah, I want you to clean the kitchen. And they're like, okay. And they put three glasses in the dishwasher, Hey, I cleaned the kitchen. Sometimes we're not clear. And so here's what that means. Wipe down the counters, put the dishes in the in the dishwasher, and sweep the floor. Or, I don't want you eating home before dinner. What does that mean? So being clear, teenagers, and some more than others, really need us to be like, here's, can you, and sometimes it's helpful to even ask, can you repeat back? I just want to make sure we're on the same page here about what that expectation is.
[00:38:24] Hunter: There's a question that I heard from, that Brene Brown apparently talks, does with her team, and, This idea of let me paint you a picture of what done looks like or what I expect from this. And I love that idea this is what I imagine done, this looks like when you're done.
[00:38:42] Yshai Boussi: Oh my gosh, that saves so much potential stress and conflict.
[00:38:45] Hunter: Let’s match up expectations here.
[00:38:48] Yshai Boussi: Totally, that's a great one, yeah. It's a little more on the front end, but it helps a lot on the back end. And then consistency is about follow through. Because if I'm like, randomly saying, I want you to clean your room, and it's They have no idea or I'm like, or I want you to turn in your phone tonight at nine, but then last night I let you have your phone in your room and, and it's just random and I'm just, it's inconsistent. That can be really frustrating for teenagers. And sometimes you'll see them when they're upset. It's cause it's it feels like it's out of nowhere. And so really thinking about, I'll talk to parents about this a lot, is really thinking about like, When I come up with an expectation, am I prepared to follow through? Because when we're able to enforce this consistently your chore day, you're going to take out the garbage every Monday night is our, when the garbage trucks come and recycling, pick up our stuff on the street on, they come, it comes on Tuesday morning. So Monday night is when our kids do recycling and garbage and they just know it. And every Monday night, like that's their job, right? And so they know it. So it's very consistent and there it's really no big deal. They just do it loading the dishwasher after dinner every time. So there isn't, there was some fights up front bickering and, but because we try to be really consistent with it, it's really, it becomes a lot easier.
So being able to be consistent with expectations can I ask your son? Sometimes it's I don't think I can follow through or, okay, I need to really be ready. Like they're going to push back. They're not going to like it sometimes. And so I need to be follow up because I'm going to ask them to get off at eight o'clock and they might say they'll get off at 8 o'clock, but if I don't follow through, they're going to be on till 8:30 or 9. And I just need to understand that I have to follow through. I need to, be in there and then eventually they'll get better at it. So that's consistency. Capacity is about their ability. Can they do it? We have really intelligent kids, but that doesn't mean they know how to do some basic things- time management. They might not be able to manage their time very well, so we might need to help them. Or I remember when I, my wonderful 15 year old daughter who I love, but when she was 12 and she had to unload the dishwasher, she had never done it before and she got really frustrated and was like, She, and I had to remember she literally didn't know how to load the dishwasher. Like I had to show her how, and before that initially I was like, how do you not know how to load the dishwasher? But I'm like, why would she? I'm like, she's literally never done it before. It doesn't matter that she's an intelligent 12 year old. So sometimes we think like you should know when it's but maybe they actually, no, one's ever shown them. So we've got to help them a little bit.
[00:41:12] Hunter: Yeah. We struggled that sometimes because my 17 year old has a chronic pain issue and we want to have high expectations for her, but yes, sometimes I have to remember that her capacity is diminished, when she has pain and it is frequently, so that can be hard.
[00:41:30] Yshai Boussi: Yeah. And we do have to, and that's, and that capacity, that's a good point is, it can fluctuate. Some days, like their capacity is going to look different. And even parts of days, like morning or evening might look really different in terms of what their capacity is for any given expectation. And so that does require, that comes back to the connection piece, which is really being attuned and empathetic and curious, paying attention so we can see and adjust as needed. Oh, maybe you actually can't do this right now because you're about to like this. I have a breakdown over this request to take out the garbage, whereas last night you took out the garbage no problem. So maybe I do need to okay, so it sounds like you're not able to do that now. So then I need to be able to adjust. Maybe you still do it, but I'm going to, you can do it in an hour or two hours from now. Or maybe I give you something else to do that would be helpful instead. So that's where some of that flexibility and attuning to their capacity. And then the last one is just collaboration, which is working together. The older our kids get as they become teenagers, we really want to include them, have the, and bring, have, let them have a seat at the table in decision making as much as possible. Like maybe there's like a list of, if we're just going to stick with the chore thing, there's 10 chores that need to be done. Like what two do you want to contribute to or. Or we want to, we need to make this decision about, devices in the family. We want to have some screen time breaks. What do you think would be a good way to incorporate that into our family? And we have the final say as parents, but the more we can include them in decision making and expectations the more buy in they'll have and the smoother it'll go. So those are the five C's.
[00:43:10] Hunter: Those are beautiful and really very helpful, I imagine. I love this. Bishai's book is “Staying Connected with Your Teen and Polyvagal Parenting Strategies to Reduce Reactivity Set Limits and Build Authentic Connection”. And they can find you@yourname.com. Do you wanna spell it for everyone,
[00:43:32] Yshai Boussi: Sure, sure. ? Yeah. Y-S-H-A-I-B-O-U-S-S-I. YshaiBoussi.com. @yourteentherapist on Instagram it another good place to find me at your future.
[00:43:47] Hunter: Is there anything do you have any final thoughts that you'd like to share with.
[00:43:52] Yshai Boussi: I think what I like to end with is just or just there's so much good information. Your podcast is amazing. I've been listening to some episodes and this, it really is there are so many it's like a library. Like you just can pick a topic. There's just so much in there. And I also like, And I'm sure you would agree, like it can feel overwhelming sometimes. And it's I need to know everything and I need to do everything right. And we can get very perfectionistic. And so I just want to remind parents, it's there is a lot of really good stuff and it is good to keep learning and growing, but also cut yourself slack. We all struggle. You and I, like we're just regular parents. Like we don't always do everything right. We mess up. I mess up. All the time. I don't always set good expectations. I'm not always clear. I'm, even though I wrote a book about this stuff so cut yourself slack, at the end of the day, just try to stay connected, when all, when in doubt, just say, I love you. Good night. You may have had a knockout drag out fight that day and it was rough. And you're not proud of how you handled it. You can still just say, I love you. Good night. And, we'll figure this out together. It doesn't have to be perfect. Don't compare yourself to other parents and other kids. Everyone's on their own journey. Every kid's going through their own thing. Every family's different. And so really try to avoid that as well. You're probably doing better than you think you are. And hang in there.
[00:45:09] Hunter: I love that. That was a beautiful thing to end with. Thank you, Yshai, for all, for coming on the podcast, for putting this work. Thank you for abandoning business school and going to work with the teens. And doing this work and I know it'll will have ripple effects and I really appreciate you taking the time to come talk to us here on the Mindful Parenting Podcast.
[00:45:36] Yshai Boussi: Thanks a lot, Hunter. I really appreciate you and all the work you do. Really, it's really amazing and I appreciate the conversation. This was really fun.
[00:45:48] Hunter: I feel like this episode was so helpful for me. I don't know. I hope it's really helpful for you too. If you like this episode. I invite you to check out Episode # 397, “Understanding Tweens and Teens” with Douglas Haddad, was a great episode on that. And you might also like the coaching Episode #384, Mindful Parenting Coaching: How to Hold Space for Big Emotions. So that's Episode 384 and Episode 397. There's so much there.
So actually, there's so many episodes, of course, because we've been doing this podcast for 10 years now. That we actually have a quiz. So if you, maybe if you have a friend who hasn't checked out the Mindful Parenting. Podcast, yeah, and they want to know what to listen to. You want to go back into the archives because there's so much good information there. Go to mindfulmamamentor.com/quiz. You just answer a few easy questions and you're going to get a unique to you five episode playlist help you become less stressed and more joyful with whatever your challenge is you're going through. So you'll find episodes on how to discipline without punishment, helping kids calm down, how to talk to littles, how to overcome overwhelm, and so much more. So it's just a quick quiz away. Great to share with a friend. It's at mindfulmamamentor.com/quiz and good to compare your results.Maybe you'll see you have the same challenges and accompanying episodes, and maybe I'll have different ones. I don't know. But yeah I hope you enjoyed this episode. Got any feedback? You want to let me know about a, tag me on Instagram at MindfulMamaMentor.
And I'm wishing you a great week. I hope this is gonna be a week with lots of snuggles and hugs. And hey, if it's a week where it's hard to be a human being, hard to be a parent, I just want you to know you're not alone. It's, this is an incredibly challenging time. Even the Surgeon General has told us that. It's, the stress on parents is really overwhelming. Please, I hope you take this: everything we do here at Mindful Parenting Podcast to help you get through this. Remember that, you don't have to be perfect and to cut yourself some slack, give yourself some compassion, and know that it's okay if you're struggling or if you're feeling like you just don't like parenting right now or anything like that. That's okay. That's allowed. That's part of being human and you have permission to be human. Yeah, but I hope it's a good week and I'm wishing you the best. Thank you so much for listening. Namaste.
[00:48:33] Mindful Mama Member: I'd say definitely do it. It's really helpful. It will change your relationship with your kids for the better. It will help you communicate better and just, I'd say, communicate better as a person, as a wife, as a spouse. It's been really a positive influence in our lives. So definitely do it. I'd say definitely do it. It's so worth it. The money really is inconsequential when you get so much benefit from being a better parent to your children and feeling like you're connecting more with them and not feeling like you're yelling all the time or you're like, why isn't things working? I would say definitely do it. It's so worth it. It'll change you. No matter what age someone's child is, it's a great opportunity for personal growth and it's great investment when someone's there. You can continue in your old habits that aren't working, or you can learn some new tools and gain some perspective to shift everything in your parenting.
[00:49:37] Hunter: Are you frustrated by parenting? Do you listen to the experts and try all the tips and strategies, but you're just not seeing the results that you want? Or are you lost as to where to start? Does it all seem so overwhelming with too much to learn? Are you yearning for community people who get it, who also don't want to threaten and punish to create cooperation?
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[00:51:28] Mindful Mama Member: Hunter's program that really drew me in was that it wasn't just on like, how do we practice mindfulness? It incorporated the communication and the problem solving and went a lot deeper. It was really amazing to be going through this process and have that weekly support that extended beyond just our teacher training, really. The whole process was really well laid out and organized and having the materials from a teacher perspective was really nice as well. The course is so thorough you're given every single bit of material that you could possibly need.
[00:52:01] Mindful Mama Member: This is really a community reaching far and wide. And I think that this program, because it works on decreasing your inner stress response and taking care of yourself, so then you can give that back to your children and model that behavior for your children as they're growing up into adulthood. Just seeing the positive changes in my own family and knowing that as I continue to spread that into the community, that will be, like, just even more far reaching.
[00:52:27] Hunter: Enrollment is open now and there are limited spots available. Step into your dream of becoming a Mindful Parenting coach. Find out more at mindfulparentingcourse.com/teach. That's mindfulparentingcourse. com/teach.
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