Cathy Cassani Adams, LCSW, co-hosts Zen Parenting Radio, is the founder of the Zen Parenting Conference, and is author of several books, including her latest, Restoring Our Girls. She teaches at Dominican University and lives outside Chicago.
530: How to Talk to Our Girls
Cathy Cassani Adams
Girls are struggling and they need us to support them. How do we do that? By talking to them. In this episode, Hunter talks to Cathy Adams about the need for parents to build trusting relationships with their children. They discuss the complexities of parenting teenage girls, emphasizing the importance of open communication, emotional intelligence, and creative approaches to reconnecting with teens.
Ep 530- Cassani Adams
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*This is an auto-generated transcript*
[00:00:00] Cathy Cassani Adams: The more connection they feel to you, the more they respect you, the more that they feel connected to you, the more likely they're going to listen to what you have to offer.
[00:00:12] Hunter: You're listening to the Mindful Mama Podcast, episode number 530. Today we're talking about how to talk to our girls with Kathy Cassani Adams.
Welcome to the Mindful Mama Podcast. Here it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Mama, we know that you cannot give what you do not have, and when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clarke-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course and teacher training, and I'm the author of the international bestseller “Raising Good Humans Every Day”, and the “Raising Good Humans Guided Journal”.
A quick heads up, right now enrollment for the Mindful Parenting Teacher Certification Program is open. Why do parents and professionals join this certification program? Some want to deepen their own understanding of mindful parenting. Others are ready to give back, supporting families while earning income in a deeply fulfilling way. Some are adding it to their current offerings. And just so you know, being a perfect parent isn't a requirement, just a desire to grow and to make a difference. Here's the best part: cohorts are intentionally kept super small, just six participants, to ensure personalized attention and meaningful connections. The enrollment window closes soon, so don't wait. Learn more and apply today at mindfulparentingcourse.com/teach. That's mindfulparentingcourse.com/teach.
Welcome, if you are new, I'm so glad you're here, this is gonna be a great episode. For you, we're gonna talk to one of my favorite people, Kathy Cassani Adams, LCSW. She co hosts Zen Parenting Radio and is the founder of the Zen Parenting Conference and the author of several books, including her latest, “Restoring Our Girls”, and she teaches at Dominican University and lives outside Chicago, and you'll hear me talk about Cathy.
She's one of my heroes, and help me get started podcasting just through her and Todd's example. Yes, they're the OGs. But we're going to talk about girls. We're going to talk about how girls are struggling and they need us. They need us to support them. So how do we do that? Kathy is going to talk to us about the need for parents to build trusting relationships with their children and the complexities of parenting teenage girls. And we're going to talk about how important Open communication is emotional intelligence and being creative when you're trying to reconnect with your teenagers. And as I always say, if you're a parent of little ones, do listen to this episode. Don't turn the dial off because I said teenagers. It is so important, we are always, anytime we're talking about things with older kids, you're going to hear the things that you can do when they're younger to make things better when they're older. So it's really important to stay, stay here. Kathy's got so much wisdom. You definitely should. Before we dive in, I want to let you know that you can bring me to your school or your workplace as a speaker. In the last few years, I've been doing talks all around the world for groups, and we have so much fun.
I'm known for offering evidence based learning in a way that's clear, realistic, humorous, and immediately helpful. And you can go to MindfulMamaMentor.com/speaking to book your dates. That's MindfulMamaMentor.com/speaking. And now join me at the table as I talk to Kathy Cassani Adams.
Kathy Adams, this is the third, fourth time you've been on? You're a real returner. Because you're my podcasting hero. And in the outro, I'll tell you the numbers of the podcasts that Kathy's been on in the past. You can check them out after you listen to this one. And so we're going to just dive right into it because you have a new book that is out now, and I'm so excited about it. And it's called “Restoring Our Girls”. And it's interesting, because this last year we interviewed people about boys and the struggles boys are going through and there's some attentions going there.
You're writing, “Restoring Our Girls”: now, what are girls struggling with that made you want to write this right now?
[00:04:46] Cathy Cassani Adams: I think that I decided to shift in this direction because usually I just write about parenting overall. But within that and you know this about the podcast that I do with my husband, Zen Parenting Radio I focus on women and girls.
My husband focuses on men and boys and my husband runs a men's organization called men living. And so there's been a lot of talk in our house about boys being left behind or boys being lonely or boys not having as much purpose or direction. And there's been a lot of discussion around that, but I sometimes I'm totally open to it, meaning I know it's real.
I've seen the data and the stats. But I often think that just because we look at certain data with girls, that things are increasing or getting better, that we make assumptions that now we're good. Now everything's fine. And the truth is, right after the pandemic, a lot of research started to come out about the mental health of girls.
And the stats were incredible. Not shocking to me, because I'm working with girls all the time, but around the levels of anxiety, the levels of depression, the increase in eating disorders. The increase in hopelessness. It was in the Washington Post. It was in a lot of major publications where there was being attention drawn to this and I really felt a need not only to focus on why this is happening because I'm talking to girls all the time.
So I hear what they're saying, but also talk to parents about it. How to have conversations with their girls to decrease the odds of these experiences that they're having this is, when it comes to, the rights of girls and women, it's constantly an uphill battle, we may earn certain privileges or rights or we see data going in the right direction when it comes to college or whatever it may be, but there's always this risk.
out there of losing our rights, which we already know has happened, in two years ago, we lost some significant reproductive rights and there's still threats around that. This is the kind of book where I didn't want, because I have so much experience with moms and their daughters, especially Gen Z this book is really the perspective of Gen Z ages 12 to 25.
I wanted to share that and make sure that we're shoring up pearls and not having them be overshadowed. And honestly I think we can do this simultaneously. My friend, Dr. John Duffy wrote Rescuing Our Sons, and he and I do a lot of work together. This is not a battle of who's struggling more.
It's more of Let's hold both as a focus of our attention and get as much information as we can to make sure our kids are healthy.
[00:07:18] Hunter: Yeah, I think we're really seeing that our emotional health and mental health or a kid's emotional and mental health is incredibly important, right? Like I think we're all realizing like this is the.
And so we're seeing how incredibly important, how incredibly debilitating all those challenges can be for that. So I obviously it's like a big focus and yeah, you're for restoring girls. You're talking about this idea of looking at these challenges and then. And then conversations. And I think that's so interesting because the challenges are so varied, right?
Yeah, body image and anxiety and mental health and all of these different things, all these fears. And you say, my hope is through real, sometimes difficult conversations. The girls were raising today will have less to unlearn. I love that and more permission to know themselves and trust who they are.
This means they'll have less to untangle as they get older and they can be less self critical with fewer thoughts about not being good enough, needing to look better, worrying about others, needing to be less angry, and all the other myths we impose on girls. And I think it's important. Any woman hearing that can say, Oh yeah, not being good enough, needing to look better, right?
Worrying about others, needing to be less angry. It was such a big revelation to me recently, talking to Rose Hackman about emotional labor that, Oh, probably the reason why it was so hard for me to deal with my own anger when I was when Maggie was a toddler was because it was so As a woman, my expectation was on me to be the emotional steadier, the one who takes care of everybody's emotional health and health.
So I, I felt even, went against that so hugely. But yeah And all these myths. So I love that. Yeah. Tell me a little bit more
[00:09:08] Cathy Cassani Adams: about that. Yeah. Because my focus has been working with moms for a couple of decades and also sometimes simultaneously working with them and their daughters, but the moms that I'm talking to we've been focusing on self awareness and self care, whatever, per decades, mindfulness.
And they are right now in the process in their late 30s, 40s, 50s, untangling all these things they learned, right? So I'm using the exact same words that, I wrote in the book, they're trying to unlearn all of these cultural norms. All of these things were often that were imposed on them either by education or their parents.
And some of it is around things like emotional labor and that the caring in all aspects of caring falls on you or that the expectation that you be a little more quiet and not so outspoken or that you don't ask for as much or that you are somewhat of a martyr when it comes to challenges and that you just deal with what you have to deal with and take care of everybody else.
I'm supporting women in unwinding that and the thing that ends up happening though is as they're doing that work, they may be raising daughters, not realizing how they're actually teaching them these old outdated methods of what it means to be a girl or what it means to show up in the world.
And how does that look around things about, be nice to everybody, be nice to everybody, you don't want to, you don't want to stand out too much, or I want you to be involved in these kind of groups or these kind of sports, or I want you to I want you to have a partner. I want you to have, and again, this is, it's not always boyfriends, it just depends on the sexuality of the girl, but it often it's, I want you to be with somebody and I want you to partake in all of these things that are really cultural conditioning for girls.
And moms often don't realize how they're creating the same situation that girls are going to have to unwind. There's a lot of myths. Around who you're supposed to be and what you're supposed to be like, even if our society is pushing back a little on these and obviously exposing them, bringing some light to them and questioning them, the girls I'm talking to, even the ones who are outspoken on social media, who say things where we're like, Oh, they're so irreverent and they're saying all these things and they're so strong when I'm in a room with them talking to them, they're struggling with the exact same thing everybody else is.
Do I look good enough? It, is my body type right? Am I, am I getting enough exposure on social media? Am I getting enough likes? So there's still, we may think Gen Z is just crushing it and doing so many different things than we are, but the issue that they have going on inside is very similar.
And if we As moms can start those conversations around those things, not, this is the thing hunters. There's not answers to it. It's not so do this instead. It's talking about it and bringing it out in the open and normalizing the anxiety that our girls feel and that we have felt and continue to feel.
That's what I'm, that's what I'm asking for with moms is recognize your history and be cognizant of your self awareness and be thoughtful about what you're passing on. Be conscious of what you're saying to your girls and the conversations you're having and the energy you bring to your parenting.
[00:12:16] Hunter: It's interesting because as you said that, as always, I have an aha talking to you where I was like, Oh yeah, like I, my daughter, both my daughters are in high school now. One's a senior, one's a freshman and one, one dates girls. One has not had any dates yet, but yeah I have a bias towards wanting them to be, going on a date.
I didn't even realize that was in my head, except I thought I, I probably have been, who knows what I've been saying, in my conversation, maybe been giving off that vibe and, or somehow whatever I'm saying, I know I've probably been leaning in that direction of thinking that whatever you are right now.
is not, you could be doing more. You could do more. Yeah, I don't know what it is, but it's interesting because You're right. Like all of these things are things like that we may have some consciousness of or not, but it's like the world that we live in, the fishbowl that we exist in, this is the water that we exist in and it affects us and it affects our girls.
And so you, what you're saying is let's make these issues and things that we're dealing with conscious. So that we can just so that we can at least be aware and start to notice when we're coming from this place that, that may be perpetuating these things that we didn't even mean to perpetuate.
Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcast right after this break.
[00:14:27] Cathy Cassani Adams: Yeah, the old programming and there's a two tier effect here because the book is about how to have these conversations Like I really like literally lay out a guide like here's some here's the big things, widen your perspective and then I explain what that means, But then the other effect of this is then we have a relationship with our daughters.
That's more trusting. That's non judgmental It's going to be more likely they come to us if they're feeling challenges. Cause that's the other thing that the teenage girls are telling me and my college kids too. I teach at Dominican University, I teach social work to mostly freshmen and sophomore.
And I'm going to say girls because I always have one or two guys in my class, social work tends to be still considered a pink job. And so I'm always trying to bring guys into the program, but tends to be a lot of girls. And they're struggling with these things, too, about how to have conversations with their parents.
They don't feel seen. They don't feel connected. Even if parents are like, the thing I hear all the time, Hunter, is a parent will say to me, my kids know I love them. They know they can come to me. And my response is often, no, they don't. You think they do because you love them. That I completely believe.
It's not questioning your love. But they don't feel comfortable because they feel that they'll be judged and they feel that they'll disappoint you and they're afraid of hurting that relationship. Now, it may come off as big behavior and slamming doors and everything, but what's underneath that is I don't want to lose my sense of belonging in this family.
This can get really challenging when it comes to issues like sexuality or gender or achievement. There's a lot of pressure on achievement with girls to overachievement, not only get straight A's, but do this, that or the other. And so I think the, this whole idea of talking to our girls, number one, it's for their mental wellbeing to make sure they feel like they have a place in the world and a strong family connection and that they feel grounded as they go out in the world.
But the other piece is that relationship with us, because I will tell you, Hunter, when I met you, my girls were little. But now I have a 21 year old, a 19 year old, and a 17 year old, so three girls. And that happens so quickly, and now they are adults. So my relationship with them is, it's been completely different for a long time, meaning I've been working up to this point where I haven't been as much of a parent figure as I have been a supportive presence.
Right? And they've needed to make decisions on their own. They've needed to have challenges that they figure out how to get through, but I'm always there. I am not the, it's not a hierarchy of me being parent top down. It's been this process of becoming more of a peer. I'm always going to be their mom.
It's not that you lose that, that position or that role, but it changes. And let me tell you, if you can build that over time, meaning shift into, more of a peer role, they continue to come to you. They trust you. And so many parents say to me, but if I don't maintain that hierarchy or that power over then things will get crazy or I'll lose control.
It's exactly the other way around. The more connection they feel to you, the more they respect you, the more that they feel connected to you, the more likely they're going to listen to what you have to offer. Otherwise it's a lot of rebellious yeah, whatever, hand to the, in the air of yeah, I'm not listening or I'm going to do exactly the opposite of what you tell me.
And like I said there's many levels to this. It's not just about one conversation. It's about building a relationship with our girls over time.
[00:17:50] Hunter: Yeah, we have to. I see that as a steady thing from when they're little, we have so much control over and it's a process of all the, through these 18 years, giving them more and more control, giving them more and more autonomy, letting them figure more and more things out from the simplest, from how to put your pants off to how to figure out how to do your homework, to how to, whatever, how to apply for a job and all of these different things.
Yeah, I think that seems like a steady process from moving from, the things that are your problem as a parent hopefully are less and less where you become more of a supporter and a peer and a listener and somebody who's, always on their team but not the one who has to solve the problems more and that you're right like that's how the influence gets retained, right?
The more In in Mindful Parenting, I've shown people a chart, and it's a diagonal line going from one corner to the other, and basically it shows, it's like the power and influence, right? The more we use power, the less influence we have, which is exactly what you were saying, like the more, and because.
Nobody wants to confide in somebody who's going to take away their phone and yell at them and try to control them or judge them. And the more, the less we use power, the more influence we have where you're not trying to manipulate me and control me. I have a lot of autonomy. Therefore, I can come to you.
To me, it makes so much sense, but I know for a lot of listeners that can be hard to wrap your head around if you're scared of saying, I don't know of letting some things go. I imagine if you had a listener who's 13 and they're frustrated. Or you have a listener whose child is 13, daughter is 13, and they're having some of this adversarial stuff, and the parent's saying, Oh my gosh, I haven't been talking to my child about sexuality or dating or any of these things, and things have been pretty adversarial.
It probably seems like a big leap to go from there. to what we're talking about. So I'm wondering, from the point of view of that kind of listener, what would you say, where to start?
[00:20:12] Cathy Cassani Adams: That's a great question. I, when we talk about conversations, obviously the place that we go in our mind is, how do I have these talks about these really difficult topics?
And that's very common, I teach sex ed for 5th graders and 8th graders I love having these conversations with parents or, about the risks of alcohol or drugs or vaping or whatever it may be. Those are important conversations. But the interesting thing is to have those conversations.
You need to be having conversations with your kids that aren't so heavy. They can be about pop culture. They could be about what's going on in the news. It could be about your kid's friends. It could be about their interests. And again I always bring my interests into things with my kids. My kids know the music I like, the kid, my kids know the things that I love to do.
They know about all the cult documentaries I watch, like my kids know plenty about me and they love that and they love being interested. But my, if you're really looking for which direction should I be going, become interested in what they're interested in. Find conversation through what they are just showing up with in their everyday life.
They're interesting fashion sense, the class that they like the most. Don't just focus on grades. It's about why do you like this class? What's interesting in it for you? The big conversations will happen more naturally and more often if we're having really normal. Every day in conversations with our kids where we're just, like something that I do all the time.
I don't know if my kids, I know they love it, but I overdo it is, I love memes and I love tick tocks and I love to send them to my girls and be like, this reminds me of blah, blah, blah, or remember this or this is I know what they love and what makes them laugh. And I like to be somebody.
Who shares those things with you with them. And here's the thing, as you would a friend, which is that's what you're saying. You're saying date your kids, yes. And Hunter. So I'm so glad you brought up the friend word because when I'm doing presentations are talking about this, people get really hung up on.
I'm not my kid's friend and someone I respect very much. Michelle Obama said something this year about I'm not going to be my kid's friend. I don't want to worry about them. I don't want to worry about what they think about me. I just want to be there for them. And I think we can hold all of these together.
I don't disagree with what Michelle Obama said. And at the same time, I still think we don't have to, and this isn't what she was saying, but sometimes then we swing all the way to the other side and we're like, so that means I can be a jerk and I can be like demand things. And that means I can be on their case because I don't want to be their friend.
And it's there's so much gray in the middle there. I am very clear with my girls when I say I am clear, meaning I know my role in their life. I am their parent. I am not their best friend. I am not looking to go to parties with them. Sometimes I go to tailgates now at my girl's college and that's fun, but I'm usually the one going home at seven.
Like I'm not the one who needs to be with them all the time. And at the same time, I am very friendly with my girls. We have so much humor together. We have so many inside jokes. We have so many things that we do like to do together. Places we like to go eat, things, movies we like to watch, this is a part of our relationship.
And I think sometimes when we get too worried about, I don't want to be my kid's friend, it, it gives us some weird permission to then be on their case. And then we think our job is to constantly be teaching, lecturing, judging. Telling them what they could be doing better and that's the kind of place where I want to be like the most important thing This is a very Zen parenting thing from our podcast Is that your connection with your kids and it developing over time not just so they like you that's not It's so they know they can come to you.
So they know that you have their back This is, and this is again, telling you that all my children are basically adults now. That's what's coming. So if we don't develop this relationship as we go, it can be really challenging to make that connection when they have more choices of when they come home and if they come home and if they call you.
And so if we want to have a long term relationship, like over the course of their lives, that's something we can start developing when they're home.
[00:24:12] Hunter: Yeah. Yeah. I can't agree more. As you're describing this, I think. Sometimes I say, I talk about how I listen to Maggie's, who's my 17 year old now boring stories when she was four years old about her My Little Pony, about the My Little Pony show she watched and this whole thing, and thinking wow I'm not following any of this, but I'm looking at my kid, and she's really into it.
I'm gonna, Just stop everything and just pay attention for it because I can in this moment and just listen to her and how that Really does hey off to like when you know You have a teenager and I have added teenager who talks to me because she knows I'm gonna listen to her, right? She wants to tell me things and it's funny because she tells me all kinds of things But like at some point recently, it's been some she's gotten into Pokemon from a friend of hers and she's telling me about these all this like great Pokemon she found at a certain spot and I'm like Oh, like I could care less about these, but I love that my kids here and I feel her energy and I love her so much and I love like just being here and listening to her and being the person she talks to about these things.
And that is what you're aiming for, in some ways, right?
[00:25:19] Cathy Cassani Adams: It is. And like you just said, there's a payoff, Todd and I always call it dividends, when you have done those, hard conversations or you as a parent have apologized for something that you did that you know was.
Was unkind or not honoring them or not seeing their perspective. Like when you have done those things pay off over time. And we have to put our energy as parents every day towards something, right? We have to make decisions. What are we going to put our energy toward?
And the energy of listening to the My Little Pony story, as boring as it can be, and I think everybody has their version of that, of whoa, this is continuing right now this conversation, like what my youngest daughter is so way into Twilight right now and into, Hunger Games, all these things.
I have been into personally, and then my oldest was into, and then my middle was into, and now my youngest is into it. So I'm having the same conversations over and over again. But in, it's thrilling too, because you feel the connection. You feel how much they want to tell you. And then they'll text you and say, You're not going to believe this, in Forks where the movie took place, blah, blah, blah, you like, you become one of the people they want to share their worlds with.
And so it goes beyond just the listening. It becomes, you are a person who gets them. And so often if you want, there's so many things in this book about what girls tell me about their parents and it's not all negative and bad. It's about what they wish their parents understood. And one of the biggest things from 12 to 25 years old is my parent doesn't get me.
They don't know me, they think they know me, they tell me who to be, they tell me what they think I should do, they tell me what they think I'm capable of, but they don't know me. And so then that kid never really has those kind of like fun, interactive conversations because they're like, yeah, I'm just going to be what my parent thinks I need to be in front of them.
I'll play the role and then go be with my friends and other people who really do know me. So it's a loss if we don't recognize this.
[00:27:17] Hunter: Yeah, that's heartbreaking. Okay, so back to that sort of parent that's been stuck and maybe in an adversarial relationship You mentioned it just in the way you responded to me I think probably like one thing that might be a step would be to start with an apology I'm this has been hard recently Talking has been hard.
I'm sorry. I mean you might apologize for whatever you've done Brought to that and we probably brought something to it if we've been in a really tough place I imagine
[00:27:47] Cathy Cassani Adams: yeah taking ownership for our own energy and being like I've always thought when I've been in stuck places with my girls That I've wanted to be a little more creative If I'm noticing that, cause they do go through phases where they don't talk as much, like we can't depend on long conversations all the time.
It's not, I don't want to set up something that people think they're going to fail, or they're like my kid's not really talking that much. So what are creative ways? There was a mom and a daughter, she was 16 at the time who were really struggling and they knew it and they were open about it.
Like we know we're both struggling. This isn't a, a secret between either of us. And they came up with. The, they're like, okay, we have our days where we're frustrated, but every night that we're home together, let's go outside and watch the sun go down together and just do something that has nothing to do with anything.
It's just something they both appreciated. Then they look at the stars, they talk about something different and it wouldn't be this contentious. Mom daughter thing. It was more like, let's try and do this as much as we can. Busy lives, they couldn't do it every night, but that was when they started to not dislike each other anymore, where they're like, this is something we do together, and we enjoy this.
And just a level, you're demonstrating of a level of commitment as a parent to say, I will do different things to reach you. Because too many moms or dads come to me and say I'm just done with my kid. I don't get it. I don't want to dig into this, I, they don't, they're disrespectful, I'm done. They're not really done, but it's their version of checking out.
And I do think that there's this myth we have that it's okay if our kids hate us, let's just let them hate us, and then when they get to be 25 or something, they'll come back and thank us because we held the line and we were such good parents and they couldn't see it. A, that could happen, but it may not.
And B, you missed all these years. When you could have been a support system for them and they could have been a sense, a source of joy and connection for you, we, and then what, how does that harm them in the long run that they were connected to their parents during that, during those very important teenage years.
Very important years where a lot can happen, big things can happen. And so we're too. And again I'm not getting, let me talk to you about the 13 year old girl again, or the parent who has a 13 year old girl. Start small. Don't worry about, I need to have the sex talk. Do the pop culture talk. Who are you listening to right now?
What's your favorite song? Oh, Gracie Abrams? Send me one of her songs. I want to hear it. Do you like the whole album? Okay, tell me which songs you like. Now, what is she like? Oh, she wrote songs with Taylor Swift. Oh, that's so interesting. Send me some of their, do you see how it doesn't have to be about deep things?
Just start paying attention, caring about what they're doing and don't try not to focus on, these, the out, the outer things like you look so beautiful or I love your clothes. It's not about compliments. It's about you as a person. What are you interested? Sounds like you really this friend.
What kind of, what, how has she been a different friend than other friends in the past? Your kid may say, I don't know, but these are door opening opportunities. They may next time come back and say, you know how you asked me about my friend? They actually weren't that nice to me today. And you go, Oh, that's interesting.
Tell me about that. So I think the bottom line is I could give lots of different examples, but start basic instead of big. Start with just reconnecting in smaller ways to build the connection in bigger ways.
[00:31:18] Hunter: I love that advice. I think that's amazing and we should all definitely start that. In “Restoring Our Girls”, you have six phrases that you encourage parents to eliminate from their vocabulary with their girls.
What are some of the things That we should not be saying to our girls.
[00:31:36] Cathy Cassani Adams: Yes. And I will tell you that these were things that I've been paying attention to for probably 15 years of things that girls tell me they hear. Now, of course they have different iterations and different ways that they've been said, but I tried to narrow them down to the core of what they are.
And these are the things that cut off communication immediately and make your daughter defensive and also make her feel like you totally don't get her. As an example, the first one, it probably won't surprise you, you're too sensitive. And that is, this word sensitive, I think in this day and age we have a little broader understanding of that word isn't negative and that to be sensitive is actually a skill and that sensitivity is actually what helps us connect with others and be more intimate and have more vulnerability when we're talking with other people.
Most of us understand that, but many of us still use sensitivity as a slight. You're having too many feelings. And I don't wanna hear it.
[00:32:28] Hunter: I got that all the time. As again stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break.
[00:33:10] Cathy Cassani Adams: Our generation, again, Gen X women who I'm working with, or actually, you're Gen X Hunter? Yeah, I'm Gen X. Okay He's late Gen X. You're like the cool part of Gen X. I always feel like, I loved my area of Gen X. It was like, 80s teenager, 90s college dude, I can't think of anything better.
But, we can't, we were often told that was a negative thing and to hide it, or that, sensitivity made us weak. It became a very female driven trait, like that's a way to slam a female is to say, you shouldn't be this sensitive or you're not being strong enough.
And the problem is with our girls, first of all, they have a better understanding of what sensitivity means in Gen Z is not afraid of this word or the majority or not. They're fine with being sensitive, but saying you're too sensitive is really what you're saying is whatever feelings you're having right now.
I don't want to hear them. And then even at a deeper level, I can't handle them. Because a lot of times our desire to not, or it's not even a desire, our unconscious belief that we can't handle our girl's emotions is because nobody really listened to ours. There's a, we didn't get to, we're not fully conscious about this, but there's a we didn't get to share our emotions.
We had to be quiet when we were at home or around boys or in the boardroom, or we didn't get to do this. So I don't want to perpetuate this in my daughter. It's almost a defense mechanism. But the crazy thing is the more that we say to our girls, and I know you do this all the time on this podcast and with Mindful Parenting is every emotion has a message.
Everything is important information and releasing the emotion and talking about it is what allows it to process through and not become a problem. It won't become behavior. It's just a feeling and it can, we can as parents sit with it. It's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable when my kids are sad.
I was just with my older daughter a weekend ago and She was having a tough morning and I, for very typical reasons, school, pressure, all those things. It's so uncomfortable to me, but I also know what my role is, which is to have her back, which is be open, which is allow her to share and just rubbing her back and saying, we're here.
Like I, me shutting down or judging her on her sensitivities only disconnects us.
[00:35:28] Hunter: Yeah. Yeah. I see you and I hear you. It's so healing. Just to acknowledge what is there. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I see you and you're here. Okay. You're too sensitive. Any more that we have planned?
[00:35:40] Cathy Cassani Adams: Sure. Yeah. So in that same vein, because I don't need to go off on too much of a tangent, is you're too dramatic, which is another version of, you are having, you think this is too big of a deal.
You are blowing this out of proportion. And here's the interesting little paradox here. Is the girls I work with who tend to, and I'm going to put this in air quotes, blow things out of proportion, often elevate what they're feeling or saying because the other things they've done have not gotten the necessary attention.
Does that make sense? Yeah. Like they're taking it up a level because when they've said things before, maybe in a calmer way or a more relaxed way, no one is paying attention. Nobody is saying, ah, that sounds like it's hard. It's everyone's everybody's got that problem. Move on. So they sometimes take a lot of energy to share something, maybe do have big tears, big emotions.
And I'm not saying it's not real. It's not a fake. It's a, I need help. And then sometimes, so that's one version is that someone is being more, elevated in their emotion. The other version is, again, the parent having a perspective that any emotion or any, thought process around a challenge when it comes to friends or a class is just, quote unquote, too dramatic.
That we do in our society have this belief of that the strong people just suck it up and just, Move forward and don't speak about it and we've misinterpreted what resilience means We think resilience means like you don't cry and you don't you know Resilience is having a struggle and then realizing you can come back from It's not a in the moment shutting down every emotion.
So sometimes we're using you're too dramatic as a judgment and again As soon as girls hear that, they're like, okay, this conversation's over. I'm done. I'm not, I'm obviously not being heard.
[00:37:28] Hunter: We can imagine it because if you went to a friend and you were upset with something about something, you just wanted to talk to your friend said you're being too traumatic.
That would just shut that down immediately. You would not be considing in that friend anymore. You would feel completely unsupported. So I think sometimes when we can relate to like, how we might talk to a friend or someone else, like then it just becomes clear oh yeah, that is not that helpful.
[00:37:53] Cathy Cassani Adams: Yes. I really appreciate this conversation about, honoring that word friend and and seeing it in a new light rather than in kind of the old school I'm not your friend. I'm your parent. The honoring of a connection and a friendship with your child is not you losing your position of authority in their life.
It's you respecting them as an individual and, understanding that you want to treat them in a dignified way because if you do that, they do the same for you. And then Hunter, the bigger pieces, then that's how they relate to everyone else in the world. Like another layer, there's so many layers to this and that.
Not only are we learning to have conversations with our kids so we can talk to them about hard things, then we want to connect with them so we have a relationship. And then we also want to be role modeling how they relate to others in the world. So if we have a connected relationship where we talk to each other, hear each other, are as nonjudgmental as we can be, apologize to each other, then that's what our girls do in the world.
They take that with them into their friendships, into their workplaces. It's bigger than just our home. I have a whole section in this book around, critical thinking and binary thinking and how we are so extreme right now and so divisive in so many ways overall in our country.
And just even when it comes to parenting, and that we can begin to understand. That what we're experiencing at home and what they talk to us about and what we do in the home is what they take out.
[00:39:24] Hunter: Yeah, and what they expect from others. I'm sure many listeners can relate to the idea that maybe if you had some dysfunction in your home growing up, then you get used to that, acclimated to that, that feels familiar.
And do you want, what do you want your kids to be used to, acclimated to? I want my kids to be used to and acclimated to, being respected and listened to. And cared about all of those things. Yeah. Okay. So we're taking, we're creating that connection and then building those conversations, building that connection.
And then also what we started talking about, but I want to just put it in again, here's this idea of then, Taking it to these larger issues that women and girls deal with about being good enough, achievement, looks are we allowed to be angry, right? All of these things and as our connection is solid and as kids get older and develop, it becomes developmentally appropriate having those conversations about things.
I wonder how if you have built that connection to be able to talk about a lot of things, would you use something like things in the news as a door opener to talk about something that's a bigger issue?
[00:40:35] Cathy Cassani Adams: Yeah, definitely. That's why I love pop culture and I just love it as being Kathy like before I had kids, I loved pop culture.
And so it's been really easy to incorporate into my parenting. Pop culture or anything, political, media, what's ever in the paper, like those are often jumping off points or TV shows we're watching together or, like it can come from the most interesting places because I don't know if Mike Flanagan, he's a director, producer, writer of these movies that are often on Netflix, and they have a horror tilt, like they're scary.
Like for example. Then I definitely don't. Yeah, exactly. And see, I used to like horror movies when I was young too, so I can't handle most of them. But that's why this is, these are important because kids tend to like this, right? And his, one's called The Haunting of Hill House, one is called The Haunting of Bly Manor.
He's done a bunch. And they are scary, so if you don't like that stuff, don't. But they have these deeper messages about family, about grief, about trauma. And my girls and I, and Todd, we have had conversation upon conversation about these shows. And we've watched them more than once. We have connected them to things in our own lives, same with things like, relationships, we've talked about, with Twilight, something like that.
The relationship between Bella and Edward is really not a healthy one. Let's be real there are some reflects. It's not the healthiest thing, but we it's not that doesn't mean don't read it or don't have fun But let's have you know, isn't it interesting in fiction how something looks and how something looks in reality?
This is not about not doing it. It's about this is what critical thinking is too is Recognizing how sometimes we are paradoxical. I am somebody who's super sensitive Who really focuses, a yogi like you are, a meditator, he's, and I like horror movies. What's going on? That is, that's really, that's very paradoxical.
I am not one thing. I am many things. And so are my girls. And I want them to have that understanding of when it comes to yourself and who you are, it's okay to not have this linear path of, I am a soccer player and I will play soccer in high school and I will play soccer in college and I will be an athlete.
You can be a lot of different things and you can change your mind. And you can make mistakes and come back from it. No problem. This is to be expected. And so it does come out of pop culture. It does come out of media and it comes out of everyday experiences with us, things that they did or didn't do.
The things going on within our family, like we've always been very open about what's going on in the family. Maybe not telling it's not about burdening our kids with problems. Again, we have to be very clear. Our kids are not our, the people we go to get our support, our kids, but we can share with our kids challenges or history.
In our family, we have alcoholism in our family. That's something that we talk about openly. My sister in law has been in recovery for a long time. It is an open conversation. You know why? Because they can ask her questions. She tells them, she talks to them about their experiences. These are the kind of things that it doesn't have to be some planned sit down across from the table talk.
It can be normalizing these realities in when you're sitting in, in the kitchen just chatting Oh, did you hear, talking about things like the things that we think kids can't handle. Do we not understand that kids are doing shooting drills? In their shooter drills in their classrooms, and we think we can't talk to them about these things, they're living it.
Do we not think that our kids, especially our teenage kids, do not have friends or people they know who talk about, who have are demonstrating suicidality, meaning they're talking about not wanting to live. They're talking about feeling challenged. Our kids hear these things. And so us thinking, I don't want to talk about it with them because I may give them some kind of idea.
They know. And so it to open those conversations up is you being a person that is available and willing to talk about hard things. And guess what, Hunter, a lot of times, you know what I say? I don't know. Sometimes they ask me things I'm like, I don't know. And I don't know if I'll ever know because I don't know.
It's not about finding information on, through Google or AI. There's just some things we can't answer. Like we just have to live in the uncertainty of it and that's uncomfortable. So
[00:45:01] Hunter: but then we nam Gracie Abrams e it, then we name it, this is, it's uncomfortable to not know the answer to this. Yeah. Oh, that's so beautiful, Kathy.
I love that. Your newest book is called “Restoring Our Girls”. It's out now. It's everywhere. Books are sold. Kathy, is there anything that we missed you think? I know there's a lot of things we missed, so you should definitely go get the book, but is there anything we missed that you want the listener to hear?
[00:45:27] Cathy Cassani Adams: Just that this book was written from a place of love for not only my daughters and my own younger self, but all the women and the girls. that I work with, because the girls that I work with have been saying to me for however long, 15 years, can you tell my parents this? That's what they say to me whenever we make a breakthrough.
Can you tell my parents this? And that's what I wrote this book for, is here you go, parents. This is what they want you to know. And obviously it's not going to, I have a whole page on, obviously this is not going to touch every female experience, obviously, especially with gender, differences and, it's not going to be everything, but there is this common thread through this book.
And sometimes I think it's just as applicable to our boys and our partnership, but these girls were kind enough and trusting enough of me to say, this is what we really want. And that's what this book is. So I just I hope that people will check it out and share it and that you use it with your girls.
Show your daughters the things I wrote about, these are the things that girls want and see if they agree. They may disagree. Makes for an awesome conversation. Show them what I wrote. And see is this how you feel? That's what I did. I went through all these with my daughters and their friends.
Like we, we've had so many conversations around it. It's, they probably have this memorized more than I do. So it, I would just, that's, that would be my suggestion if you really want to make it work for you.
[00:46:57] Hunter: I think it's awesome. I love the work that you do and I love how you. Help us to think about ourselves and realize things about ourselves that we may not have even known before that we're not even seeing.
And I think you hold up a beautiful mirror to us as humans to see, Oh, here are these parts of my humanity that I haven't seen. And that's always been a gift that you've given me. So I really appreciate it. Kathy Cassani Adams’ new book is “Restoring our Girls” wherever books are sold.
And of course, I'll tell you this in the outro probably, but Zen Parenting Radio-the OG parenting podcast- is amazing. What episode? How many episodes do you guys have now? Probably the week
[00:47:45] Cathy Cassani Adams: That this podcast comes out, probably around 800. Yeah, so it's been 14 years that we've been doing Zen Parenting Radio. So what's fun about it is when I started, my oldest was, I think, nine, and now she's 21. And my youngest was, like, three, and now she's 17. We have gone through all these stages, so a lot of times, I don't know if you got this, Hunter, when you first started this work, but people would say, just wait till you have teenagers, you're not going to be saying these things anymore.
I'm not only saying them, I am, like, amplifying them. I'm, like, validated. Validate. I'm like, we have got to keep the mindfulness part, the presence, the connection. It's more, I've now gone through it and still going through it. It's never over. It's not like my daughter becomes 22 and I'm done. Like they need us just as much as they ever have.
So thank you. I feel very sane. I feel very similar to you. I love what your work. I feel, I love your podcast and your books, obviously. So thank you. I'm just glad that we know each other.
[00:48:48] Hunter: I always love talking to Cathy. It is so filling and she has so much wisdom. I really appreciate it. I know that you have a friend who could use this episode today, so make sure you text or tell that friend about this episode. If you're interested in something about men and boys, you can hear Cathy's husband, Todd, come on the podcast in episode #395- an episode called “Taking Men & Boys Out of the ‘Man Box’”. And Kathy is also here on the podcast in episode #334, “the Secret to Being a Zen Parent”. So listen to those episodes. Kathy and Todd have so much great wisdom to offer the world. And then let me know how it was for you.
How did you enjoy this episode? Did you take something away from it? I'm @MindfulMamaMentor, you can tag me or send me a dm @MindfulMamaMentor. I'd love to hear your thoughts. You can also send me a voicemail at MindfulMamaMentor.com/VM. That's MindfulMamaMentor.com/VM. For voicemail, you can leave me a message. You can tell me what you thought about this episode. You can even ask me a parenting challenge and we'll. It'll be recorded and maybe we'll put it on the podcast and it'll be a Q&A for the podcast. We're going to do some Q&A episodes. So send me a voicemail. That'd be so cool. I would love to answer your question on the air and you get to hear you on the on Mindful Parenting podcast. How cool would that be?
And I hope your year is going okay. I've been nursing a couple injuries, I've told you that I'm super into Scottish dancing, but I have long toes and so my toes are unstable, which is sad. So I'll be working on keeping myself, I'm recovering from like a foot thing and a little shoulder thing. Ay yi. So aging is terribly undignified. All these things that were like so easy. It's not so fun. I sound like a really old person now. But yeah, that's what I've been challenged with and I'm working on. Getting back into fighting shape, physically. Oh thank goodness at least for my meditation to keep me sane.
Keep me surfing the waves rather than subsumed by them. That's so important. I hope you're surfing the waves. I hope you're, I hope you're, if the waves pull you under once in a while, I hope you use some tools to Swim, to surf, to enjoy some of the waves I don't know how far you can take this metaphor but I hope that you have some time to yourself and some time to do what makes you feel good and and lots of hugs and all that good stuff this week. And I will be back with you next week, real soon, so make sure you're subscribed. And I'll be back again to talk to you really soon. Thank you so much for listening. Namaste.
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