Heather and Julie are psychotherapists and authors of The Happy Sleeper and Now Say This. Their new book is called Generation Sleepless — why tweens and teens are not sleeping enough, and how we can help them.

364 Generation Sleepless

Heather Turgeon and Julie Wright

How can we help kids get better sleep?

Authors of “Generation Sleepless,” Heather Turgeon and Julie Wright help us help our tweens, teens, and even little ones get better sleep! We talk about the “perfect storm” of factors that work against us, and how to hold limits to support kids’ sleep!

Generation Sleepless - Heather Turgeon and Julie Wright [364]

Read the Transcript 🡮

*This is an auto-generated transcript*

[00:00:00] Hunter: Glad to have you. And I'm so excited to talk about your book generation sleepless, because I, this, I feel like We're learning so much about how incredibly important it is. Sleep is for adults, right? Like we're learning is linked to like Alzheimer's and all kinds of things, as far as, adults and how vital it is.

And we are often I think like really on it. Maybe when they're, our kids are little, but they're like, especially as a mom of a 12 year old and 15 year old. The thing, the world is not set up for them to sleep well at all. So maybe you can like, give us a low down of what the problem is and what's going on for tweens and teens is what now for

[00:00:53] Heather Turgeon: sleep.

Sure. You really, you highlighted it right there because the world is not set up for tweens and teens to sleep. And you're right. Generally speaking, little kids sleep pretty well. About 70% of young children have a healthy amount of sleep on a regular basis and about 60% of adults, but only about 10% of teenagers.

Get healthy sleep on a regular basis. So their sleep just takes an absolute nose dive starting in middle school. The data is just so wild. And whereas they need about nine hours of sleep. That's about a, what an average teenager would like to get on a regular basis. The average high schooler gets about six or six and a half hours.

So they're missing around two or two and a half hours of sleep every night of the school week. Most high schoolers by the end of high school. That's about 10 hours of sleep debt by Friday, and then they try desperately to make up for it on the weekend. So it's it really it the data is extremely clear that it's just a drop, like just a drop off a cliff in the amount that they sleep related to how much they need.

And we can talk more about this, but it has a lot to do with people. Not really understanding and appreciating how much sleep they need, because like you said, we all appreciate it when they're. That really changes. And that's part of the problem.

[00:02:26] Hunter: Okay. So why all of a sudden, are they getting so much less sleep?

What are the factors that are playing into? And that's just shocking, like 10%. That blows my mind, but okay. But what are the factors what's leading to this? Yeah.

[00:02:42] Julie Wright: Yeah, it is shocking. It is a crisis. So we describe what we call a perfect storm of factors that contribute to this sleep loss.

So if you imagine factors that are pushing bedtime later include a natural shift in their biological clock, which means. They get sleepy later, their melatonin rises later and they just aren't ready for bed as early as they were as, as much as two hours later. So you have that. The next thing is. Academic overload, ridiculous amounts of homework.

That just seem to be increasing more and more over the years and piled on with that are stacked activities that are often in pursuit of showing up well on their college applications. So you have that academic overload and then you have of course technology, the, the emergence of the smartphone.

Correlates with the drop in teen sleep. And we all know how much that is contributing to later and later bed times, because teenagers are taking longer to do their homework. They're, staying on their devices long after they should have gone to bed. It's very hard to put them down.

They're very antithetical to sleep. We can talk a lot more about why technology is a huge factor. So all of those things crunch and shrink their sleep. In the evening. And then we have in this country way too early high school start times in most cases and that shrinks their sleep on the morning side.

So what you end up with is just a mathematically impossible amount of time left for them to even get close to that nine and a quarter hours that Heather mentioned, we'd be thrilled if teenagers could get eight hours and they're not even close to that. So it. It's this perfect storm of factors. That's squeezing their sleep from both ends.

[00:04:38] Hunter: Yeah. I can see that. My daughter. Who is 15, who is a freshman in high school this year? She she has to get up. She's incredibly efficient at getting ready, but she has to get up at six 15 to get the bus at 6 45. Cuz school day is starting at seven something. It's bananas, it's nuts.

And she, she does pretty well at going to bed at night, but it's drives me crazy. So how is this. What is this doing to our teens? Like I can imagine. If I get, I'm not getting enough sleep, I am crabby. I'm miserable. I'm, I aren't adults are we're like a little drunk, right?

Like it's almost as if we've had a glass of wine, if we haven't had enough sleep, it's. It's miserable. I get, watch out my children. Like I don't, they don't wanna be company and I'm tired. I'm like crying and then I'm grumpy. Yeah. What's happening to the kids. Like how is it affecting them?

[00:05:43] Heather Turgeon: I think the number one. Piece that people that resonates with people is the fact that there's a mental health crisis right now among teenagers. So yeah, the most recent statistics tell us that about one in three high schoolers will report a persistent feeling of sadness or hopelessness. And one in five have made a seriously contemplated hurting themselves.

And that's shocking. That's an abs. And it's a significant increase from 10 years ago. And if you map out the climbing rates of mental health issues, And the declining amounts of sleep, they perfectly match each other. And we know what happens in the brain. There's just a multitude of studies that show us that when we don't sleep well, including teenagers, the parts of the brain that are soothing, the frontal cortex the part of our brain that helps us make sense of the world and feel creative and solve problems and have good judgment and regulate our emotions is dull.

And the part of our brain that gives us our reactive emotional responses. Our amygdala is amplified by up to 60%. So you have real changes that are happening in the brain that cause us to see the world through a more negative lens. It's not surprising that teams are not, feeling hopeful and energetic about the future and that they're feeling overwhelmed.

You also, that the brain has this really amazing system for flushing out the waste that accumulates during the day. Your brain is a very highly active organ. Obviously it's doing a lot. It's extremely active and it's producing waste during the day. So byproducts of of all that activity.

And then it has a really neat PL like plumbing system for basically washing that waste out. But it does not turn on until we fall asleep. So if you don't sleep enough, you basically start the day. Like you were mentioning feeling a little, like you'd been drinking. You have that fogginess that clutter in your brain is actually a chemical, that's a, that is a chemical process.

So that's another, I think that when I think about that and how I feel when I don't sleep well, the fact that my brain hasn't quite cleaned itself properly makes a lot of sense to.

[00:08:14] Hunter: This is all so fascinating because like the timeliness of this is amazing. Cuz last night we had a little showdown in the home Clarkfield home because my 12 year old, I.

Held the boundary of our nine o'clock iPad, time backing off of it. And it was a big mess, but I'm seeing her start to push things later and later, as far as like making her lunch later, taking a shower at 10 o'clock at night and all this and I'm worried about this like slippery slope of lack of sleep, right?

Like I could this. So important for all those reasons that you just listed and now I'm gonna need her to listen to this episode that she can understand exactly why it's so important, but yeah, but yeah, it's it's crazy. And for any of us, who's like who, if you are. Worried about having a good relationship with your team to your listener, or if you are, worried about your teen's like crazy behavior or their mental health, like this is a big factor that we can start to affect in one way or another.

I imagine. We can't, I don't know. Absolutely. I'm. The two early start times are the big, tough issue that like takes a lot of collective action. But we can do some individual things in our home right too. So what do our teens need us to do? Cuz they're gonna push back on this. I know, but I dunno.

Talk to me about this piece.

[00:09:51] Julie Wright: I love that you have the nine o'clock, cut up time for iPad. I think that's a great starting point. And I agree completely about relationships. Our relationships suffer also so included in a mental health sort of perspective on low sleep is when we're not feeling well.

And our. Brain isn't working the same way. Our relationships suffer. We see the world through a more negative filter and we see other people and we interpret what they say, and we even interpret their facial expressions differently. So our teens and us as parents, our relationships suffer. And then on the other side of the coin we find, and it's very understandable that parents are afraid that their relationship is gonna suffer if they hold limits around it.


yes. Yes.

[00:10:40] Julie Wright: So we're, we're therapists and we're here to say, If you hold a limit with empathy and kindness and consistency, your teenager will still like you, they'll probably even still love you. And this, you don't need us to tell you how well kids do when limits are held with kindness and how they feel reassured and the predictability and the consistency of it helps them.

My brother-in-law was reading our new book and he wrote to me yesterday and he said, I do not. Envy parents of today who are having to raise their children and. In this age of technology. And I said, you're absolutely right. So the question is, what do we do about it? How do we hold limits in a way that's age appropriate?

And that's also appropriate to what we now think of as unreason not unreasonable, but what we now think of as irresponsible tech design, we have technology companies in our country that have absolutely no regulation. Europe is, has just enacted something called the digital services act, which is one of the facets of it is designed to, to require accountability.

Just like the FDA in our country regulates our food and our drugs. We need to have technology regulated. And right now it's like the wild west out there. And we are the victims of companies that could care less about our kids' sleep or their mental health or. they just wanna make money. So helping kids to understand that, to, to feel like they have a little bit of an inside scoop on what's going on and let's maybe not be part of their grand experiment and let's not let them control us.

Sometimes they really like learning about that kind of thing.

[00:12:38] Hunter: My kids. I find my kids are like they just like all of us think they're gonna be smarter than the technology, like this stuff that's optimized for just as much attention, the attention for dollars economy.

And it's optimized for you to just hold, have as much attention as possible. And they think. Like my kids think they're too smart for that. And I'm like, I'm not too smart for that. I'm like susceptible to this. Like you are 12, your brain isn't fully, I that's my frustration with my kids there with that one.

[00:13:18] Julie Wright: If they have a hard time putting it down and if they can't stop thinking about it and if they get cranky, then those are signs that. They're becoming addicted to it, so I guess that's part of the education piece, but it's a challenge. It really is a challenge. What Heather and I will always say is, especially like a great example is having a 12 year old is we find that parents let go way too quickly.

They just let go of of limits and structure around technology way too early. And So with a 12 year old, the more you instigate family habits around what we call wine down time, bedtime routines, family, time, connection, time, all of those things where it just becomes, Heather can describe what she does, cuz she has a she has similarly aged kids and she's got them so used to the routine that I don't think they really think too much about.

About fucking it.

[00:14:25] Hunter: Okay, cool. Yeah, that's true in the family. Like we try to, oh, sorry. We try to plug things in downstairs, but what else can we do? What are the things you do? Tell me about what you do, Heather . I

[00:14:37] Heather Turgeon: think I have I can't say that technology isn't coming from my family too.

We have the same similar to what you're describing. It's not, we are not immune to that. And especially after the pandemic, during the pandemic and still, yeah. Did I say after the pandemic, cuz I think we're still

[00:14:56] Hunter: in

[00:14:57] Heather Turgeon: whatever since COVID I honestly technology invaded our life in a way that I was just now looking back.

It was so clear that we had really, we had very good. Boundaries around technology before the pandemic. So we, my kids are similar ages to yours. We didn't have any screen time during the week at all. And it just was an, an accepted thing. And then all of a sudden, it just, the wheels came off that, like I had, I felt like I had no control anymore and it just really took over our lives.

So now it seems like I'm trying, we're all trying. Figure out how to peel it back a little bit and to put some healthy boundaries around technology. So I think I'm very empathic to the struggle because I am experiencing it every day myself, but some of the things that we do around sleep it means that we have my kids.

Let's say their bedtime is nine 30 around eight o'clock is when everybody's devices go off. Any individual devices, somebody's working on a computer or playing a video game. Everything goes off. All the personal devices go off at eight o'clock, but that's because my kids don't have homework really, so that, that's a tricky part, but for us, that works.

And then from eight. Forward is like our wind down time. So we'll watch a movie. I try to make it so that it's not just, we're getting rid of things. We're not just getting rid of technology. We're actually drawing people into the wind down time with things they like to do. So everyone's excited to watch Saturday night live right now.

We're like really into SNL. We are excited. There's a new episode and Dr. Strange is on , so it's not just, this is not just what we're not doing. It's what they're actually drawn to do. So watching a TV show in the living room is perfectly fine for sleep that does not suppress your melatonin to watch TV from the distance.

And also watching a television show or a movie as a family is actually a great way to lure everybody to the couch, to start winding down. I also go around, starting around. I mimic what's going on outside with the sun. So if the sun is going down, I'm starting to think about the home lights going down too.

And by total darkness, I've basically turned off all the lights in the house, your eyes adjust very well. So I will, I'm turning systematically, turning off almost all the lights except for a couple of lamps. So by the time the sun is really down your, that is a really big way that our artificial light in our homes just.

Unknowingly it's suppressing our melatonin. It's keeping us activated without us even realizing we should really be mimicking what's going on outside in the natural cycle of light and dark. And that's true of the morning too. And we can talk about the importance of morning sun, cuz that's a really big one, but so that's what we do around wind down time and it makes difference.

[00:18:08] Hunter: I love those. I love those tips and I really want my kids to listen to this morning. Sun morning sun really helps us wake up. If we can get outside, I hear during the, during the first, get outside for 20 minutes or something in the morning, like it helps you to sleep better at night.

Does that help your sleep later? It really

[00:18:28] Julie Wright: does. Exactly. That's great that you know that yeah. The morning sunlight within about ideally as soon as possible after you wake up, it could be within the first hour or so. And you don't even need 20 minutes. It depends on how bright the sun is that day.

But somewhere between two to 10 minutes of real sunlight. Not just through the window. What it does is it pushes go on your internal clock. It sends signals to your brain that it's time to be awake. Your melatonin goes down, your cortisol goes up and this is alerting. This helps you focus and feel awake.

And like you're saying what it does. It also pushes go, which means that you're starting at that moment to accumulate sleep pressure. Which for adults goes pretty much usually the whole day. Most of us don't nap. So by the time bedtime comes around, We're ready to go to sleep. Whereas if we don't get that early morning sunlight, it might be harder to go to sleep because the pressure hasn't built as high throughout the day.

So this is a common thing we do with teenagers who will say I try to go to bed early, but I can't fall asleep, but they're. They're either sleeping in too late, or they're not getting any sun in the morning. They're not getting any light, so they're not the pressure doesn't build. And by the time that reasonable bedtime comes around they're really not tired yet.

But if they get that early morning light, we have all kinds of ideas in the book about. Teenagers not going to school in the dark is a good place to start, but also about walking to school or having some early activities at school outside, of course, depending on the weather. But even if it's cold, they could have an early, run around the field or something just to get that sunlight first thing in the morning.

[00:20:13] Hunter: It's interesting because all of these things sound like, and for the listener, dear listener, if you have little kids, like these are all like habits and patterns and you know that you can start to facilitate when they're young. If you're protecting their sleep, when they're young, if you're doing these things, when you're young, if you start to create these habits patterns, when they're young, you can.

Start to protect that, stop that drop off of sleep at, in middle school. But at the same time, it's interesting because I recognize now that my 12 year old just has this circadian rhythm to stay up later and she wants to, I would really like her to just get her exercise during the day.

And she wants to like, do all these, like. Active things that she needs to do make her lunch, take a shower. That's when she suddenly has decided that she wants to like clean, tidy her room and I'm like, honey, this is not helping you go to sleep later. But she says, whatever that sleep is fine.

But these are obviously things that we can start and, start these habits when they're young. If we are modeling this, then it's just the norm in your house. That's the ideal. I imagine.

[00:21:41] Heather Turgeon: That is. Yeah, I think that's really the way to do it is that if you have an elementary schooler and I talk to a lot of parents of, fourth and fifth graders who are starting to consider having phones.

They're the kids are messaging each other a lot. They're already starting to feel that. That pressure to be socially connected after dark . And so I just, that's a tipping point, I think is the end of elementary school where you start to feel like, oh, wait a minute. Everybody else is thinking about, I think that the.

Saturation of the smartphone is getting earlier is getting younger and younger. I forget what the percentage is of eight year olds who own a smartphone. It's surprisingly high. It's 20% or something like that. I think that's true that we wanna consider holding onto those things.

And then when kids go to middle school is when I think a lot of parents feel like that's their turning point in independence, and now I should let them, be in charge of these things. And it's, it just feels like I've seen it myself and I've experienced. It is like a little bit like, oh, wait a minute.

I don't know what happened to all our. Sleep routines and expectations. They just went away, but I think kids still need connection with us and they may be maybe part of it is that we start to interpret their behavior as their friends are more important. And I still think that the family rituals are, it's a really good opportunity to preserve family rituals.

Maybe just putting a little more weight on yeah.

[00:23:25] Hunter: Yeah. Like my family is so important too. I think what you're saying, what's underlying, what you're saying is yeah, friends are important and that's true. That become, they become more important at that time, but that doesn't mean you're gonna say, okay, I'm letting the friends run the show.

Like you. Still wanna have a close relationship with your teen and tween so that you can have that influence that is so important because there's some really serious and big, bigger child, bigger issues. Definitely.

[00:23:55] Julie Wright: Yeah. Yeah. I would say also that, taking a shower and making her lunch, that kind of falls into what we would consider bedtime routine activities.

Okay. Cause she's not on technology. It's not highly stressful. It's. It could be absolutely part of her routine. I think the key is to, getting to a point where she finishes her routine at about the same time every night and that, that after that she's relegated to, reading a book in bed or, really getting into bed at a certain time.

Those activities, biological.

[00:24:32] Heather Turgeon: I was just gonna say those constitute a wind down routine. It doesn't seem like a routine, but it is it's wind down time. As long as the house lights are pretty low, if she's taking a shower and Julie said and doing those things, that's part of wind down.

Definitely. And then bedtime routine is maybe more like reading and those activities.

Okay, thank you. You guys are



[00:24:56] Julie Wright: If she has to get up so early, she has to get up at six, 15. She's 12 years old. We'd like her to be in bed by. If she went to bed at 10 15, that would only be eight hours. So we'd really like her to be in bed at about nine 30. Go to sleep at about nine 30 And what happens is even though her biological clock may really want to stay up a little bit later, having the regularity of going to bed and waking up at about the same time every day, we'll train her internal clock for those times. It is mutable. We can change.

[00:25:33] Hunter: Okay. Cool. So you guys mentioned five different things.

We have two early start times tech, stacked activities, academic overload, and the shift in the biological clock. What about the stacked activities? This is probably another place we can have some impact. It, we want our kids to a lot of parents feel a lot of pressure to do a lot of things, and we know that teens.

It's good for them to have some structure. Like their brains are a little chaotic. They, I think act activities are good to some extent, like my girls do Scouts and it's so good for them to see their friends every week and have the structure and do the camp outs and all these different things.

But there's a tipping point, where becomes too much.

[00:26:19] Heather Turgeon: Yeah, I think that's exactly the way to think about it is what is that tipping point? Because I agree. And I think, especially with technology, I feel like the more my kids have to do after school. The better up to a certain point, because anything they're doing, going to cross country practice my daughters and girl Scouts too swim, all that stuff.

There's no technology. And they are getting the face to face interaction, which is so important. And they're out there with there's just so many reasons we could go on and on about why extracurriculars are so important and so healthy being part of a team and all that. So I think it is really about finding the tipping point where it becomes so much so that they're they're not able to really take care of their basic needs, and I think actually sports coaches have a lot of responsibility for that too. And we like to talk directly to sports coaches because they schedule unreasonable times and they. There's just a calculation that athletic coaches can do taking sleep into consideration because sleep has so much to do with athletic performance sleep, talk to professional athletes, they all know the importance of sleep and many of them.

Have sleep coaches like hire people to, because sleep is so important to athletic performance. It reduces the risk of injury, all of that stuff. So we, in many ways, we don't like to put the responsibility on parents and teens solely to solve this problem. We actually need the coaches to understand the importance of sleep and to take that into consideration when they schedule, a 5 45 swim meet in the morning.

So it has to be a team effort, but I think finding that tipping point is exactly what's what that should be. The conversation at home is like, where are we? How do we how do we make decisions, not feeling too much pressure to do this? And what do we really like to do? What are we what's, quality over quantity, maybe.


[00:28:34] Julie Wright: We meet teenagers who have crossed that tipping point because they're so worried about their college applications, that they're doing way too many things and it's not necessarily because they really want to, or really enjoying it, but they're just really driven. And we, in a perfect world, we'd like to also sit down and talk to college admissions and say, it's, this has gone too far, the expectations and the competition to show up well on your college applications is just out of control.

We've talked to radio shows in different countries while we've been talking about generation sleepless and some countries I. Heather is it Canada, New Zealand? They just take a test. They just have an aptitude test. They don't show, they don't have to put these applications in where they show all the things that they do.

It's just a, talk about tests to not being the greatest thing to have to go through and be judged by. But at least they don't have all that pressure. The complicated nature of co college applications and how that contributes to the sleep problems. Because by the time they get home from all those activities and are finished with all those activities, they still have often 3, 4, 5 hours of homework to do.

[00:29:57] Hunter: Boy it's nuts. Yeah. We, yeah, you'd almost want college admissions people to look at that and say, oh, this is an unbalanced person. If there are way too many activities.

Exactly. Okay. So for the parents of who are like listening to this in preparation for you having teens and twins in the future, you have little ones, maybe you have Two year olds, five year olds, six year olds.

What can they do to set up like some healthier habits, be, right now that they can start to lead into a healthier habits when they're old, their kids are older.

[00:30:38] Heather Turgeon: Probably technology and wind down time are the good things to start talking about. So we, wind down time is important for everybody it's even important for little kids. As we know, cuz kids can really like ramp up before, before bed, we work with a lot of families with young children. And a lot of them will say my two year old, my five year old, just isn't tired.

They're like going wild before bed. And that's, so that's partly because of how the circadian system works, that we have a second wind before we fall asleep, but it's also an opportunity to really. Think about wind down time. And like we were describing with the lights, diming, the lights, having a family ritual, something where you come together during wind down time.

So wind down time is one to two hours before bedtime. And so putting a wind down time in place and talking about it as wind down time. So my kids will say can we do XYZ? And I'm like, oh no, it's wind down time. You can just use that language so that everybody just, knows it. I also think it's really healthy to have the morning morning sun be part of everybody's, morning routine.

So try to just come up with a nice way to start the day that isn't on technology that maybe is like, has something to do with walking the dog or being outside or just eating breakfast outside. So that becomes part of the. That expectation, just part of the family rituals. And technology is probably the biggest one.

Not letting technology creep into your wind down time. All right.

[00:32:16] Hunter: So just to remind everyone, this is so vital for our kids' health. So vital for our relationships. So vital for their happiness, their mental health. If you want kids who can regulate their emotions, all that, like this is sleep is incredibly important, right?

What are the benefits that we are talking about here, Julie and Heather? Yeah,

[00:32:36] Julie Wright: you just listed a bunch of them. So obviously, we always like to talk about mental health first, so improved mood, improved sense of positivity, improved relationships better decision making, less dangerous risk, taking fewer car crashes, less substance abuse, stronger immune system.

Body has a better ability to regulate weight. When we get enough sleep, there's a whole. Science about that. And there are lots of things that around learning and memory too, that improve greatly focus improves greatly. There are lots of long term health benefits from sleeping. Which, children don't care that much about, but I think it's apparent it's important to know that the science is coming in really hard and fast on the long term.

Health benefits. You mentioned that early on. Just, it's just pure survival and longevity is something that we get when we sleep well. Yeah.

[00:33:40] Hunter: All right. Awesome. And I want all of those things, mood positivity, long term health all of those things. Mental health. Okay. All right. Cool. So for so the, I would say, it seems kind of what I'm getting from you guys is like the number one thing we need to think about is the piece that we have them a lot of control over is the piece on technology. And so we're gonna be holding some limits. We're gonna be holding some limits with empathy any final tips on like how to hold those limits when we're taking away the iPad and the, our child.

Freaking out and they say two more minutes late, one more minute, three more minutes. What do we do in those situations? Any tips for us in that place?

[00:34:28] Heather Turgeon: Oh, that is, I know it's such a tricky one. I think knowing that they're, that they will come through it and if you really hold the limit and if you end up having to say, I'm so sorry, I don't wanna do this, but I have to turn it off for you.

It looks like you're showing me that you're not able to do it yourself. And doing it in a respectful way, but a really clear way. They, it will wash out of their system. It will, within five, 10 minutes, we all know that experience. Then they're despondent and restless and they're upset and then they'll it washes away.

And then they come back to us. So don't give up, don't worry about that. That process.

[00:35:14] Hunter: All right. And I think what you said before consistency, right? Like I think that's that for me anyways oh yeah, consistency that's needed in my world. Yeah. Kindness, empathy, inconsistency.

[00:35:31] Julie Wright: Because if they feel like there's a, just a, just the tiniest Iotta of chance that you'll relent and give them more time, they're gonna keep fighting for it. Whereas if you are consistent, eventually you. Let go more quickly. And if we, we always say lead with empathy, say, I know how much you don't wanna do this right now.

I know you're really into what you're doing. I totally get it. I have the same feeling when I'm on my devices. I get it. It's hard, but. And then hold the

[00:36:02] Hunter: limit. Yeah. Yeah. This has been so helpful. Julie and Heather. Thank you. So very much. I really appreciate your time and your expertise in talking about this.

If you even wanna find a more about what you're doing, Julie and Heather have two other books, the happy sleeper, and now say this, where can they find you?

[00:36:25] Heather Turgeon: Where our website is the happy sleeper.com and on Instagram and social media. We're at the happy sleeper and generation sleepless. The happy sleeper those books are available everywhere.

[00:36:39] Hunter: All right. Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on some Mindful Mama podcast. It couldn't be more timely for me personally, selfishly, I've really enjoyed this and needed this. I know that there are gonna be positive ripple effects that come out from this for a lot of people. It's really important that we talk about this.

So I really appreciate your time today. Thank you.

[00:37:03] Heather Turgeon: Thank you so much. Thank you so much. This was really fun.

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