Leonie Akhidenor ,dubbed "The Parenting Guru" (Daily Mail, 2023) is a certified relationship coach, property developer and consultant, part-time model and mother of two boys.
513: High Achiever to Anxious Mom
Leonie Akhidenor
Were you raised to be a high-achieving, straight-A kind of kid? If so, like Hunter’s podcast guest, Leonie Akhidenor, it may correlate with anxious times as a parent—wanting to get it all “right.”
Hunter and Leonie talk about how childhood experiences impact our mental states, couple dynamics and more in this wide-ranging episode.
Ep 513: Leonie Akhidenor
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*This is an auto-generated transcript*
[00:00:00] Leonie Akhidenor: As we know, when we fall pregnant, our body changes so much hormonally, our mental health could change, et cetera. All of the stuff that we've been suppressing from a mental health perspective can start bubbling up to the surface. And that's what started happening for me. So that anxiety that I felt I had a reasonable handle on as soon as I felt pregnant, It just got out of control.
[00:00:25] Hunter: You're listening to the Mindful Parenting Podcast, episode number 513. Today we're talking about being a high achiever to becoming an anxious mom with Leonie Akhidenor.
Welcome to the Mindful Parenting Podcast. Here, it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Parenting, we know that you cannot give what you do not have, and when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clarke-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course and teacher training, and I'm the author of the international bestseller Raising Good Humans Every Day, and the Raising Good Humans Guided Journal. Hey there, welcome. Welcome back to the Mindful Parenting podcast.
I have an episode for you today: if you were raised were you one of those people, I'm curious, that were raised to be a high achieving, straight A kind of person if so, my podcast guest today- Leonie Akhidenor- you might be able to relate to her. Leonie Akhidenor has been dubbed the parenting guru, is a certified relationship coach, property developer, and consultant, and mother of two boys in Australia. And I went on her podcast and she is here on the Mindful Parenting Podcast talking about how childhood experiences impact our mental states. We're going to talk about couples dynamics and more in this wide ranging conversation.
Before we dive in, I want you to encourage you to grab your copy of the Raising Good Humans Guided Journal if you haven't yet. This is such a beautiful, thoughtful book. It's your way to do the work of mindful parenting, has lovely graphic design is super soothing, and you can write out all these things, and these writing practices help you explore and identify your values and challenge negative habits you've learned from your parents. There's so much in here, so you should grow your hobby. It's the Raising Good Humans Guided Journal anywhere books are sold.
And now, join me at the table as I talk to Leonie Akhidenor:
Leonie, thank you so much for coming on the Mindful Parenting Podcast. Thank you
[00:02:53] Leonie Akhidenor: so much for having me.
[00:02:54] Hunter: I'm excited to talk to you. You're like the Australian podcaster equivalent of the Mindful Parenting podcast, which is so cool. So one of the things that we talk about here a lot are, breaking generational patterns and changing things from the way we were raised.
So just to start out there with you. I think it'd be great. Like, where were you raised? How were you raised? And what was your childhood like? Are there things you're, you want to take with you or your things that you're like no, I'm really changing that.
[00:03:24] Leonie Akhidenor: Yeah. I think it's it's so interesting is when we do look back.
So you can probably tell from my accent that I am from Australia. So I was born in Melbourne in Victoria, in Australia. And Both of my parents were essentially migrants to Australia. So my mum was born in Australia, but at the age of five, they returned back to Greece. So she's Greek. And my dad was born in a village in Africa and they ended up meeting overseas and then moving back and I was born in Australia.
I guess to your point around what was the, my childhood like, being brought up by migrant parents, I think it's, there's a bit of a stereotype there, you've got parents who feel so incredibly lucky to be in the lucky country, I say in Talking Marks. And so all they want is security, financial security, stability for their family.
And I guess from my perspective as a child, being brought up in a family where they were fighting to, to build some wealth for themselves and for all of us. And for my parents, that looked like a property development company. So they got into property and they, that's no easy feat. So there's a lot of money involved and things like that.
So there was a lot of. pressure when it came to finances and in, in my household. And so I grew up needing to be the good girl. It's don't just do what you're told. Just get A pluses, get all the medals, succeed, and don't be problematic because we've already got enough going on here. Like we're just trying to survive.
We're trying to build something. So just, stay the good girl. And so it's interesting often when we are brought up in that environment, yeah, how that can impact how we are as children and then also how we are as adults.
[00:05:08] Hunter: You did that, you like, got the grades and, cause I have felt a little bit of that, like I, I did get all the good grades and things like that, but I've, I, for some reason, I don't know, maybe it was like second child in me, like I just was always like a little bit of a rebel, like my father, and they, mother, they just like I don't know, I would just go off and they I don't know, they tried, the authoritarian parenting stuff and I would, it would always just make me resentful and pushing back rather than fall in line.
I don't know, Elias.
[00:05:43] Leonie Akhidenor: Yes, I can totally resonate with what you're saying. I was the eldest and then my next sibling is six years younger than me. And we, and I've got another sister after that, who's 18 months younger than my middle sister. So they're quite close in age. So with my parents, with me, it was very authoritarian.
It was very high expectations in everything you do. And for that reason, similarly, I rebelled. So I was the one that was, drinking excessively at the high school parties because I finally made it out of the house and I was gonna show, my parents that I could do whatever I wanted.
That defiance in you versus I look at the way they parented my sisters, and I think at that point, they're more mature. They've already had one child down. So they're they let go of the reins a lot more. And so my sisters didn't have this stigma around needing to be rebellious.
They, I would buy them alcohol if they want it. So they're like, Oh, maybe I'll have a drink. Maybe I won't, maybe I'll go to that party. Maybe I won't. So it was very they were just so much more mature. in making their own decisions and a lot more sound decisions. And so I love that aspect, the way in which my parents parented them in having, boundaries, but also not suffocating the child so that they feel as though they do want to rebel.
[00:06:59] Hunter: Yeah. Yeah. My mom was like she was the third, she was an oops baby when my grandmother was 42 in 1950. So it was totally unheard of. And her sisters were like 14 years older than her. The parents, they were just like, too much to have TV to, they were so relaxed by that point, they didn't care.
And she's so easygoing, so it's like really interesting. Sometimes I think we're so uptight with our first born children and then the second born, or, and after, you're just like, everyone's a little more relaxed. Everyone benefits from that so enormously.
[00:07:33] Leonie Akhidenor: That's interesting that you're. Mom was the youngest and yet she was she still quite strict with you or?
[00:07:40] Hunter: No, my dad was more the strict one with me and they were both, I was like my brother was from my mom's first marriage. So I think everybody, everybody was just interested in. I don't know, they were trying to, I think they were trying to walk a line of letting me be creative and free and things like that, I was like an 80s kid with a latchkey kid and I just wandered all around my town and neighborhood, it was great.
But, yeah, they didn't have any other tools other than like yelling or punishment. My dad had a bad temper. So it was a little mix of both. I'm grateful that Mom's chillness was in the mix, although she did pull a wooden spoon on my back.
[00:08:27] Leonie Akhidenor: Those were the days, weren't they? You think about it now, and you think, oh, do you think a wooden spoon would really fly in this day and age, it's so different, isn't it?
[00:08:36] Hunter: I know, and Mom, you might be listening to this obviously we're just taking it all in context, but yeah, it was like in the context of then, it just was normal. That's what you did and it was changing, but it was, that was normalized. And now to think of anyone like whacking their child with a wooden spoon, it seems extreme, but it's definitely still happening here in the United States, like a fair percentage.
I don't know. Do you know about the stats in Australia? If that, Kind of corporal punishment is
[00:09:03] Leonie Akhidenor: common. It's very, I'd say it's probably frowned upon, is the way you would say it. So culturally, no, it, I guess in the circles that I run in, and particularly the amount of people that I've spoken to, a lot of parents through my own podcast I would say it's few and far between, but then again, You never know what's happening behind closed doors.
So I think as a society, it's, if we're going to, talk discipline and punishment, it's more about, taking things away from the child, like no TV or whatever it looks like, as opposed to, yeah, physically harming or, getting too aggressive. But then again, as I said, we don't know what happens behind closed doors.
[00:09:40] Hunter: It's true. It's so funny when I think about it. I did a parenting conference in Abu Dhabi. I got to meet the woman in France who actually pushed, helped push through the anti spanking laws in France. And so they have laws in France that you are not allowed to use. spank and hit a child, which makes so much sense if you think about it.
The most vulnerable humans in our society and we're just gonna whack them and that's gonna be illegal. I really think that I would certainly support that kind of law here in the United States, but I would not fly. But But yeah, it's interesting. Okay, yeah. Yeah, so you talk about on your podcast, you talk about how you suffered from prenatal and postnatal depression.
And how much do you think your own childhood experiences, to go back to that, had an impact on your mental state in these times?
[00:10:28] Leonie Akhidenor: Yeah, it's interesting. I think now that I'm out of that, I can definitely look back and think and notice the synergies between that childhood upbringing of being, because I needed to succeed, because there was an element of, somewhat conditional love, it's like you achieve, you get the praise, you get the love, you don't achieve, it's what happened?
Oh, you got 99. Why didn't you get 100? in that test or, so there was a lot of that going on. So I felt as though I needed to constantly achieve. And I should mention that my parents did the very best they can as all parents do. And I guess they didn't know any difference. So in order to really motivate me, they would always say, be that 1%, be excellent.
And it has a great side to that as well. I do a fair bit, I run a few businesses now and things like that, but I guess the shadow side to that is that I grew up with a lot of anxiety and I could never put a name to it in my childhood or even through my teenage years. I was just always a bit on edge and I thought that was just my personality, but as I headed into my twenties and I noticed that, no, this is actually, it's called anxiety and it's something I can learn to manage now that I've got a name for it.
I've lived with anxiety and then as we know, when we fall pregnant, our body changes so much hormonally, our mental health can change, et cetera. All of the stuff that we've been suppressing from a mental health perspective can start bubbling up to the surface. And that's what started happening for me.
So that anxiety that I felt I had a reasonable handle on, as soon as I felt pregnant, it just got out of control. I was anxious about everything. And then that anxiety turned into prenatal depression. So I think there's definitely synergies there. We feel so out of body when we are pregnant or when we have just had a child, all of a sudden we're so out of control.
And I experienced my darkest mental health days really in that first time being pregnant and also the first year of then having a baby and experiencing postnatal depression as well.
[00:12:26] Hunter: What did you do at that time to either take care of yourself or to reach out or did you not?
How did that go?
[00:12:34] Leonie Akhidenor: Yeah. I guess initially I thought this was just normal and I, okay, I'm an anxious person. Yes, I feel extra anxious, but isn't that just normal? But then what started to happen for me was my motivation levels went up. were just non existent. So where I'm a very driven person and I love to socialize and I love to be out and very high energy, all of a sudden that just was zapped out of me.
And to get out of bed was an effort, but because I'm high functioning, I still got out of bed and I went to work and did all the things, but then I would crash, or I would do things and not feel a huge amount of motivation behind doing them. My obstetrician at my checkup started saying, I'm noticing.
Your mental health and my husband was also saying, I'm noticing Leonie's not the same. They said, he said, you can have medication. It's very safe. That's an option for you. I was nervous to have medication again, maybe because I'm a bit of a control freak. I was like, if I have meds. Will I lose the ability to feel happy as well as feel, like what will I need and you hear that a lot from people.
I've got a lot of friends who have been on antidepressants and yes, it does suppress some of those more negative emotions, but it can make your more positive emotions more subdued as well. I opted for the talk therapy option. So I basically saw a psychologist once a week and just talked it out and got some really good strategies.
So for example, she reminded me of think about what lights you up. And so for example, I love being out, at a restaurant call it. And so she said, okay, your homework for this week is I want you to go to that Thai restaurant around the corner from your house with your husband.
I know you're not going to feel like it. But you're going to go do that. And even if it's just for an hour, just go and eat outside, be around people. And it was amazing because in doing that, in being at the restaurant, in having people buzzing around me, in that moment, although I didn't necessarily want to be there initially, I was, after a few moments, I was like, you know what, this is good for me.
I needed this. So often it was those reminders and strategies that she provided to me that really helped me during that difficult time.
[00:14:47] Hunter: Stay tuned for more Mindful Parenting podcasts right after this break.
[00:17:05] Hunter: So you now, you have two boys now, they're four and five. Were you worried about getting, having another child? I definitely-
[00:17:15] Leonie Akhidenor: yeah, absolutely. And I guess by my second, they're 18 months apart, my children, by my second, it was COVID.
It was that precarious time when no one knew what was going on. And in Melbourne, I'm not sure if you heard, but we had one of the most stringent lockdown policies in the world. Yeah. So we could not leave a 5k radius, kilometers. I'm not sure what that is in feet, but it's two and a half miles. So we couldn't basically leave otherwise you'd be in trouble. We could only leave our house once a day for that walk. And it look, they couldn't really. Police that. So although that was the law, I'd often go out three times a day just for sanity to push the pram with my newborn and then my toddler standing next to me and just go for a walk.
We couldn't it was just, it was so restrictive. Yes, I was already concerned about becoming pregnant again and what that would do to my mental health. But I knew I wanted two children close together, like my sisters, they're quite close together as I mentioned, and I love that dynamic between them.
So I wanted that. And I felt as though I would be okay the second time because I had strategies in place and I knew that if I was starting to feel down, I knew who to call and I knew what to do. So I was really armed and felt quite ready for it. and then COVID hit. So it was challenging and I did experience the depression during my pregnancy and after my pregnancy, I believe compounded by the macro environment that we were living in.
But I, look, I had some tools to support me as well.
[00:18:51] Hunter: Okay. And do you, did you worry about the, all that affecting, the bonding with your kid and all that stuff? I know I felt like I'm not sure I was able to diagnose it as such, but looking back, I could say I definitely had postnatal anxiety, and it was something that I had trouble facing, and and I also worried, for me, it came out in a lot of ways, like I and anxiety, but then later on as she started walking and talking, my temper, and I really worried about Oh my God, I'm messing up my relationship with my child, it's a real fear. I think so many of us have that fear.
[00:19:29] Leonie Akhidenor: Yeah, and it's an interesting one because. This might sound incredibly selfish, but I was so in my head that I wasn't, and I felt as though I was masking the way I was feeling quite well when it came to my children. Although they always know, but I think growing up, I, or I was quite good at putting the mask on, not being a burden, not impacting others with how I was feeling, because that's the environment that I grew up in.
So I felt quite well versed in doing that again around, for example, my toddler. With the newborn, I was always very huggy and, happy. I think the person that felt the brunt of my I guess it was anger for me as well in, for postnatal. So that sort of the temper, the frustration, the just, Always edgy, was my husband.
So unfortunately, he was the one that bore the brunt, I think, of the fact that I was short and impatient and snappy. And I think for that reason, I ended up starting a podcast too, as we've mentioned, but I wanted to talk to couples because I was so blown away by how, challenging it can be in your own relationship, even if you're rock solid to start with, how challenging the time can be when you are sleep deprived, when, perhaps a postnatal depression is in the mix, and you're both just exhausted and overwhelmed by that level of responsibility and essentially what that can do to a relationship.
So hence why I'm I deep dive and I explore that with couples because I just find it fascinating.
[00:21:00] Hunter: Yeah you focus on couples a lot and their dynamics. What do you, what are some patterns that you see, we've talked about this, we've talked to, Stan Tatkin and Kara Hoppe wrote The Baby Bomb, just like a bomb goes off.
And we've talked about this, but what are some of the dynamics that you see happening for couples?
[00:21:24] Leonie Akhidenor: Yeah, one of the very common one is, this implicit resentment that can be bred in the household. For example, when. Typically, birth mum is home with baby on average, I'll say and let's say partner is able to walk out the door and go to their job.
So what ends up happening is birth mum sits there going, I'm chained to this child who I love dearly, but wow, wouldn't I love to be, you Sitting on a train for one hour, just to myself, having time to myself and not constantly at the beck and call of a beautiful little child. And so that resentment of look at your life.
You, you can go off and do your own thing and then tap back into the family lifestyle. Whereas I'm here constantly. A little bit of resentment there. And similarly, I speak to the partners and they're like, yeah actually walking out the door each day is not necessarily easy because I'm concerned that I might miss something at home, with the baby, I might miss the first steps or whatever it looks like.
And also I'm typically coming home to an exhausted partner who is just here, take the baby. I need a minute. Both people, I feel that level of tension and I guess anxiety and often resentment for the other person's position. And and I say this having spoken to, I think a bit over 140 episodes now of speaking to many parents.
And one of the behavioral traits that tends to come from this resentment is this thing called tit for tat or Point scoring. I'm not sure Hunter if you've heard of this before.
[00:22:53] Hunter: Oh yeah, tit for tat is a very much American saying. And scoring points. Okay, but so take us deeper into tit for tat and what it's looking
[00:23:02] Leonie Akhidenor: yeah, so you know, you've got, someone wakes, you're both waking up in the morning. And it's Oh I woke up three times last night with the baby. Yesterday I had to do the bath for the baby. And then I didn't even really get time to read my book before I went to bed. Hold on.
You went out two nights ago with your friends and I haven't been out for a whole week with my friends, tit for tat. You are competing. It's like. Who is winning on the scoreboard of who is sacrificing the most since having this child? And we often do it. And I speak to many people. I do talks as well in Australia.
I speak to many parents and often when I give that example, everyone in the room is laughing because everyone is laughing. to some extent can resonate with that sort of behavior, we fall into it. And, it's compounded by so many things. It's compounded by, lack of sleep, potentially lack of time to ourselves.
And just, feeling as though our cup is so empty that all of a sudden that resentment is just all that we can feel because we are just exhausted and over it. It's compounded by the inability for, the couple to go for a dinner date, once a month, because that can be deprioritized when we've got a newborn.
So there are so many things that compound and create these behaviors that we see in the household.
[00:24:15] Hunter: Yeah, I think, as you're speaking, as I, as happens so often on this Flossiecast, I'm just reminded of like how Little social support there is for parents. There's just so we are not meant to be doing this.
It's not meant to be one or two people in a little house or apartment with children. Like it's really kids, human babies and toddlers are so high maintenance and high need. Like it really, the whole, it takes a village. Like it really, we're meant to be. Raising children in a village in the way we think we are, like, everything is evolving for the better all the time.
But no, like not having aunts around and uncles and cousins and people that you can just be like, you hold the baby for, half an hour. That is really harmful. It's really way, way too much pressure on every single parent, who's in this situation.
[00:25:11] Leonie Akhidenor: I couldn't agree more. And I think more and more, yeah, people are living away from their families or.
Or, for example, in my case, my parents travel a lot, for example, or with my case for my second child, it was COVID and we actually couldn't physically see each other. But more and more, I think, I don't know whether it's because cost of living, most of us two working parents, that's another aspect to it.
All of these sort of things that the way our society has evolved, the internet and the way that we, that kind of can to some extent isolate us. Further, because we almost don't feel we need to go out and have that coffee with a friend or see the auntie or uncle or, 'cause Oh, we should just text them.
FaceTime. Yeah. Like the luxury
[00:25:52] Hunter: or something. Yeah. Yeah, or it's an extra thing that you're doing because yeah, it's crazy. I know, I feel I really don't like the isolation and then it's like also I think a product of the whole individualism thing. At least here in the United States too, it's like that, but and I guess you probably have that too in Australia.
[00:26:09] Leonie Akhidenor: Yeah, the mentality of we can do it all. We've got this, and it's, there is a lot of that. And I think, compounded by things like social media, where you are seeing how other people are doing it all. And so therefore you feel this pressure to maintain, for example, a healthy physical body whilst having a newborn whilst still being able to, answer your emails.
Plus, everything, have a social, there's so many pressures now that we put on ourselves that perhaps generations before never experienced.
[00:26:39] Hunter: Yeah, it's so competitive. So when couples, you're talking to couples and there is this tit for tat, there is this point in scoring. My husband, we would, I would fall into this for sure.
And He would call it wheeling and dealing. Oh, mom's wheeling and dealing again. And I think it comes from a sense of Like scarcity, right? You're like, Oh, I only have so many resources. Like you have taken X amount of these resources. I think it really comes from a place of scarcity as far as like time, support, energy, all of those different things we've talked about, the scarcity of all of these things that really are, were our essential needs, like time in nature, time with family and friends, time to fulfill your purpose, time to, just, exercise, sleep, all of those things.
So when couples are struggling with that, I guess that that awareness of Oh, we're doing this, that probably goes a long way, but what else, how else can we move beyond that?
[00:27:37] Leonie Akhidenor: Yeah. And I think you've basically highlighted, I guess what I always say is a starting point. So it's actually firstly the awareness, like you said, but secondly, then thinking, okay, I need to remember what lights me up.
Because often we are just in the vacuum of no sleep, baby's needs, just trying to, make a meal for yourself to feed yourself. It's survival that the thought of what lights you up may not even come to the foreground. I know it certainly didn't for me. Because you're just in this hamster wheel of life.
Step one is actually sitting there and thinking, what lights you up and therefore what can you make even 15 minutes for in your day in order to be able to do that task? So for me, I love reading my Kindle in the sun. I love speaking to a friend over the phone. I love listening to podcasts.
I love going for a walk. I love, so I've got, and these are little things, I love moving my body. And so we might not have a full hour. Anymore. We often don't to do the things that we would have loved to do, like exercise at lunchtime, for example. You don't know when your next hour is going to come, but we may find we have a window of even 15 minutes where we can then prioritize that task.
Because let's be honest, how many of us sit there on Instagram for over 15 minutes and then we come off it and we don't feel filled up. No offense to Instagram, But, we don't feel like we're, we're energized and we're, all the good things. So I often say, regardless of how busy you are, if you can prioritize that time for yourself to do that thing for yourself, then you're starting to fill up your cup.
Trying to do that as frequently as possible is the end goal here. So once a day, and, just being very mindful of yourself and your needs. And that is a fantastic starting point because from there, our poor partners who sit at the bottom of our priority, of our list of priorities, They, you have a bit of space to think, gosh, I forgot about them.
And yeah, my partner, and I guess we have fallen into this roommate type dynamic for quite some time. And maybe I can look to, we can look to change that too. So you might have a bit more space to think. Okay, let's get a bit more affection back into our relationship. So maybe we do the kiss hello and the kiss goodbye, or we do the, a bit of a kitchen cuddle, just little things that we'd start having a little bit more room to think about once we've allowed ourselves that little bit of time outside the chaos that can be the organized chaos that can be life with children.
[00:30:08] Hunter: Yeah. It sounds like you're talking about get, keep a foothold. Yeah. Even if it's not this full thing you once did, even if it's not, and that's what, we talk about like in mindful parenting with maybe it's a mindfulness practice or maybe it's like your yoga or whatever it is, keep this foothold of this, of what life makes you, beyond the role of parent.
And even if it's a lot smaller than it would have been, like I remember. When my kids were little just, I knew that I needed to exercise you're listening, you've heard me say it, I used to take them to the Y, I did that, but also I would be super dorky person have my, had Max use the Ergo Baby Carrier.
and would be doing lunges down the street of my neighborhood so that I would just could feel a little of the, quadriceps are working and I'm getting some real exercise, right? I would totally do that. And it's I don't know. I don't know, it was just like this foothold into what makes me feel grounded, healthy, and alive.
[00:31:16] Leonie Akhidenor: Yeah, and you deliberately did that because that's probably not gonna come just, by if you were thinking about it, right? You would just be walking normally, you were conscious of it. And I guess that's the thing we're saying here is being a bit more conscious about what makes us feel good and just allocating that little bit of time to do it.
It sounds so simple. And often I say to myself, Oh, 15 minutes, what's that going to achieve? But it's amazing after those 15 minutes, how you do feel. So I'd encourage those listening to, to give it a go because it's a great thing. starting point.
[00:31:50] Hunter: And it makes you a better parent because when you're just happier and you're just more grounded, you're a much better parent.
For sure. Absolutely. Yeah. So what you are now, you're running your podcast, you're doing your relationship coaching, you're, doing this property development and consultant, all this stuff. How are you juggling it all without? Burning out. That sounds like a lot to do.
[00:32:16] Leonie Akhidenor: Yeah. Yeah.
It's funny. I think doing podcast interviews and episodes are great reminders of what I need to do too. Cause often we talk about, yes, exactly. So look, I think for me, I do a few, I've got a few balls in the air. However, I'm just, I'm quite organized and to be honest, I, they often say, can you have it all?
My thought is you can, but not all at the same time. So for me, when my work ramps up, I run the podcast and I work in property. If for example, property ramps up, then podcast efforts are being decreased. Maybe my exercise is non existent for a week or whatever period that is. And maybe I don't feel like I'm the best parent, let's be honest.
But then, okay, then I, on holidays that I could really focus on the family. So that ramps up and then the other things drop off. So I feel as though it's always just this sort of this balance between all of these different aspects of our lives. But I guess the one thing I do is really. And I really think to myself each day, what are my key priorities?
What is it that I'm going to focus on today? Particularly a person like myself, I have multiple interests as we've discussed, so I won't be able to hit every target, but let's think, I look at it and I think, I'm a bit of a to do list kind of girl as well. So I write down what are the key tasks in each of those things?
And then of those key tasks, what's realistic for me to achieve today? And I put them in order of priority. So the way in which I am even able to have that time to think about that is I often wake up quite early in the morning. So I like waking up really early. Firstly, because I hate the feeling of being woken up by an elbow to the head of my child climbing on me, but and the demands start and the yelling starts because they're so excited to be awake and you're like, I need a minute.
Oh my God, it's just so rattling. And so I'd rather be tired and get up at 5am, which is what I often do. And you don't get up. Feel like the house is quiet. I sit down at my desk. I meditate. I then get my list out. I work out what I'm doing. I start the hardest task of the day that requires my highest mental capacity.
I start that at 5, 10 a. m. and, and I get that done. And then by the time the children are awake, it's call it 6. 30, 7 o'clock in the morning, I'm ready for them and I'm also quite clear on where I'm spending my time during the day. Now, I don't always get it right. That is the ideal day, so I certainly don't always get it right, but when I don't get it right and I don't do that, I'm often reminded of how important it is to start my day in the right way.
[00:34:59] Hunter: Yeah, it sounds like you have a lot of acceptance of like that things are gonna happen in seasons, that it's okay. that right now this has fallen off. It's okay that I'm not like the perfect mom this week, and what I'm hearing from you as you describe this is like an acceptance and of that.
It,
[00:35:18] Leonie Akhidenor: yes, it probably sounds that way. And I think what I, that's probably my biggest lesson, to be honest, as the type A, recovering perfectionist that I am, I would often get very down on myself because I couldn't achieve absolutely everything You know, the same amount as I did prior to children, but with children on top and, I should be able to do it all and at the same level and the same level of excellence.
And I would often get so frustrated that I couldn't, and so it's taken me, my eldest is five and a half, nearly six years old. Six years really to come to terms with. That's the best you can do with the season that you're in, and yeah, it's everyday learning for me.
[00:36:01] Hunter: Stay tuned for more Mindful Parenting podcast right after this break.
[00:36:35] Hunter: You've talked about like the idea that, as the eldest and this high achiever, you've mentioned you that it was like you're emotionally parentified. What would you say are the costs for children who are made to feel like a parent at a young age?
[00:36:51] Leonie Akhidenor: Yeah, I think you grow up very quickly. So again, my parents did the best they could, but there was a lot of focus around work and wealth and finance and everything else was just a for example, Children's emotions, for example, particularly as in my early years were just, can't you just sort it out yourself?
This is not something that we need to all discuss because we're so stressed over here. Very quickly, and particularly because as I mentioned, my parents were migrants. They had a little network of some relatives, but really not many friends. And they wouldn't have an outlet to socialize and to perhaps burn off some of that steam.
And for example, my mum would treat me as though I was her friend, even though I'd tell me a lot of things her stresses and her best moments and, everything as though I'm an adult, but I'm a five year old child and we're walking to the and she was just You know, she's just that person, talkative, just says everything on her mind.
And, and she had all the best intentions, but perhaps didn't realize that there's some things that perhaps is less, children don't need to be privy to. And look, don't get me wrong. The positive of that is that I had a, From a very young age I had a really good understanding of the value of money, I was also very clear on relationship dynamics of why people get triggered in relationships because often I was exposed to my parents relationship and the ins and outs of that and, at a higher level, at an adult level.
I don't think it's a, It's a mystery that these days I'm so fascinated by relationships and why people behave the way they behave and things like that certainly stem from that time. So yeah, parentification and those, the children that, have to grow up a lot faster than the ones that are frolicking in the sun at the playground without a care in the world has the shadow side, the anxiety, et cetera.
But then also there, there are benefits as I mentioned. Yeah.
[00:38:43] Hunter: Do you find yourself do you find yourself swinging that pendulum in the opposite way where you're holding a lot more boundaries with your child or kind of keeping your sort of role very separate in some ways?
[00:38:57] Leonie Akhidenor: It's a very good question and I actually do. I think I'm very mindful that I want my children to feel like children for as long as possible. It is hard because there's also, you've got to, you can't shelter them from it all, but I don't need to tell my five year old son if I'm upset with dad. And in fact, that's something that we discuss, we've discussed as a partner.
Whatever's between us, we never talk poorly about each other to the children. So even if I'm furious with my husband, Jules if the boy's Oh, you're angry with dad. Oh no. All good. We're just having a discussion. It's fine. And I just push that away, not your problem.
You go play outside. Having said that, my kids are quite fortunate to have grown up in, somewhat of a privileged situation, given that my parents did work so hard to build something for us. And I did go to a school, good school, and then a good university, and then got a good job. They are not experiencing, for example, the financial stress that I did as a child.
And I don't want them to be, to grow up in this privileged world where money grows on trees. So I often do say to them, okay, if they say can I get a lunch order on Friday? How much is a sandwich? I'll be like, that's 5. That's a lot more than, the 2 lollipop that you could get.
So you make up your mind, the point is I'm very, I just really bring to the front that this is not, this is not all for free. And that they'll be like, Oh, 5. How much is a sandwich? How much would you have to work to make that sort of thing? I'm like we have to go to work to pay for your school fees to pay, so the point is I really try to make it so that they're not in this little bubble of, of wealth and prosperity and dancing on rainbows, but I'm also not saying, I'm struggling with my mortgage and I'm going to tell my five year old about it, so it's that balance.
[00:40:38] Hunter: And your family is a biracial family, you've talked about that. What is it like to raise a biracial family in Australia in 2024?
[00:40:46] Leonie Akhidenor: Yeah, look, I'd have to say, and perhaps it's the neighborhood and the area that we live I don't feel too much different from everyone else. It, it's different because certainly growing up, so as I mentioned, my dad is from Nigeria in Africa, my mum is Greek, and I grew up in a predominantly, white neighbourhood in Australia.
I was probably the only one with. Curly Afro hair. And I was the only one that kind of looked like me. And I would always look at particularly blonde girls I used to be so envious of because I used to be like, look how beautiful and gold your ponytail is and your eyes are blue. And you just, I've used to look up to that, even though.
I never necessarily experienced a level of racism per se pointed at me. Perhaps it was the media I was consuming. There was a lot of, I think, Mean Girls, the movie, Regina George, or there were a lot of examples growing up of these movies and these beautiful women.
And often I would be, I would think that blonde was beautiful. So for me, I, yeah, I probably felt a lot more I grew up the odd one out growing up, then I would assume that my boys do. I think in this day and age, there's a lot more biracial couples, particularly in Australia. And it's, I think everyone's a lot more, I'd like to say worldly or mindful in the way in which they go about things.
And I think we're perhaps a bit more educated around what's appropriate to say and what's not. And for that reason, I feel as though my I, as the parent now, haven't really felt a level of yeah, discrimination or, insecurity around, around my race and our biracial family. I know that's probably a privileged thing to say though, so that, that's just my experience.
[00:42:30] Hunter: Yeah, I think there is so much dependency on where you live and what's around you. Obviously my brother, My sister in law, her father is Senegalese, my brother, my sister in law are biracial family with their kids and my nieces, but they live in like one of the wealthiest suburbs of Boston, like Brookline, which is like where Tom Brady lives, right?
Just like they have great schools, really super, super diverse, really great schools. So I don't even know that, it doesn't even. seem to be, it's not, it's actually, it's interesting because I've had the podcast for years and I would send Jared some things like, Oh, do you want to think about this?
Consider this, blah, blah. And they're, they're like, they're good. They're in their own little world. It doesn't seem like anything's a problem in that sort of situation. It's going to be maybe super different in another situation. It sounds like you're in a similar place, but that's good to hear.
[00:43:27] Leonie Akhidenor: And it's interesting you say that as well, because my parents, so they're talking about the generation before me. They actually when they got together, my, the Greek side did not like that. So there you have, so mom and dad actually went to the States and they studied in Texas in the eighties and that was quite an experience.
From the point of being a biracial couple in the eighties, in a place like Texas. And so they do not have a huge number of fond memories of the way in which, other people would receive them as a couple when they were walking down the street and things like that. So it is amazing that even, the generation, next generation, which is myself we've had very different experiences when it comes to race.
[00:44:10] Hunter: I, I love this. Like we're seeing like this evolution, things like that. Is there anything else like with, with families that you're talking with or with your own family where you're, you wanna, where you're deliberately trying to evolve things in a more positive and a more healthy, way?
Healthy, positive way or what are, where are you focused on in that area as far as like growing the way we parent and exist together in relationships? Yeah
[00:44:38] Leonie Akhidenor: so in Australia at the moment, there are some horrendous statistics when it comes to violence against women. So horrendous statistics when it comes to violence against women and it's been, it's basically all over the media and has been for the last few months.
And so there's a big discussion. Particularly in the parenting area around, okay what do we need to be doing as parents to boys to ensure that this can, we can minimize the effects of this moving forward. So for me, a huge focus at home is not, boys, girls, the same, so it's, yeah, and we're seeing more and more of this.
For example, in Australia, we have our football is called Australian Football League, AFL. And for years, only men played AFL until I'm going to say the last 10 years where females started their own league. It's a women's league. It's beautiful that our boys being so much smaller will not know any different.
Women and men, for example, play that sport. But more and more, we're just trying to have these discussions around, often if my little one says, Oh, is, so ballet is that, and he loves to dance and things like that. He's but isn't ballet just for girls? And I'm no. Ballet's for boys too. You can.
Girls, boys, everyone can do ballet, for example. And my son at one point said, I want to have a birthday party with just boys. And now he's five years old and I, I still have a bit of control around how many people he invites and things like that. But I was like, no, you've actually got some really close friends, girls as well.
Let's get everyone together. Now that may change as the years to come, but I just, as much as possible, I'm just trying to get gender. Out of the equation, everyone's equal. We respect people as individuals, regardless of, what their preferences are, what their gender is, what their race is.
And that's really important to me too. Not only because of the media landscape at the moment and the horrendous statistics around violence, but also because my parents, for example, weren't treated equally, because of the the color of my dad's skin and things like that. So although I wasn't the one that experienced that, I have been reminded a lot about how privileged I am to not have to feel essentially like a second class citizen.
I think it's very important for me and for me to parent in a way that my boys understand that respect is a fundamental value of our household. And and that's a big discussion, as I said, that's happening in a lot of Australian families at the moment. That's so cool.
[00:47:05] Hunter: Leonie, this has been so cool to meet and chat and connect.
I feel like. Australia's so far away. Everyone make sure to check out Leonie's podcast, the Parenthood Podcast. And is, are there any final words you want to leave the listener with? We've talked about a lot of different stuff here. Anything you want to leave us with?
[00:47:25] Leonie Akhidenor: Yeah, I always love the phrase that we're doing the best we can.
So I think for those parents listening who are sitting there going, You know, maybe I am, they are feeling a little bit overwhelmed or they are feeling like they're not excelling in every area of their life or that, all of that, I think at the end of the day, as long as you can put your head on the pillow and say, I did the best I can, I feel as though that is very grounding and certainly that I, something that I try to remind myself daily as well.
[00:47:53] Hunter: All right. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your time with us. It's really been a pleasure. I appreciate it.
[00:48:00] Leonie Akhidenor: Thanks for having me.
[00:48:05] Hunter: Hey, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Maybe you could relate to the like overachieving bit of Leone or maybe not. I don't know. If you've struggled with some anxiety and you want to know how to prevent anxiety in your own kids. You can listen to episode number 426, “How do we Prevent Anxiety in Kids?” with Laura Morton, and episode number 275, “How to Help Anxious Kids” with Natasha Daniels. And then if you need more- if you're struggling with this stuff, too- I encourage you to listen to episode 273, how to “Heal Your Nervous System” with Kimberly Ann Johnson. And yeah, I hope this, these episodes become a resource for you to go to, to turn to, to grow and change and all of that stuff.
I know that everything we say isn't perfect here and we're gonna mess up a lot, but I hope that even with all our perfectly imperfect humanity here on the Mindful Parenting Podcast that it helps you regardless. And yeah, thank you so much for listening. Thank you for being here. Next week we'll be talking to Jill Castle about healthy eating for kids.
Tune in to that episode and yeah, make sure you're subscribed and all that. And I wish you a great week. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. Namaste.
[00:49:39] Mindful Mama Member: I'd say definitely do it. It's really helpful. It will change your relationship with your kids for the better. It will help you communicate better. And just, I'd say communicate better as a person, as a wife, as a spouse. It's been really a positive influence in our lives. Definitely do it. I'd say definitely do it. It's so worth it. The money really is inconsequential when you get so much benefit from being a better parent to your children and feeling like you're connecting more with them and not feeling like you're yelling all the time or you're like, why isn't this working? I would say definitely do it. It's so worth it. It'll change you. No matter what age someone's child is, it's a great opportunity for personal growth and it's a great investment in someone's family. I'm very thankful I have this. You can continue in your old habits that aren't working, or you can learn some new tools and gain some perspective to shift everything in your parenting.
[00:50:42] Hunter: Are you frustrated by parenting? Do you listen to the experts and try all the tips and strategies, but you're just not seeing the results that you want? Or are you lost as to where to start? Does it all seem so overwhelming with too much to learn? Are you yearning for community people who get it, who also don't want to threaten and punish to create cooperation?
Hi, I'm Hunter Clarke-Fields and if you answered yes to any of these questions, I want you to seriously consider the Mindful Parenting Membership. You will be joining hundreds of members who have discovered the path of mindful parenting and now have confidence and clarity in their parenting. This isn't just another parenting class. This is an opportunity to really discover your unique, lasting relationship, not only with your children, but with yourself. It will translate into lasting, connected relationships, not only with your children, but your partner too. Let me change your life. Go to mindfulparentingcourse.com to add your name so you will be the first to be notified when I open the membership for enrollment. I look forward to seeing you on the inside. MindfulParentingCourse.com
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