Andrea Owen is creating a global impact in women’s empowerment with her books being translated into 19 languages and available in 23 countries. She helps high-achieving women maximize unshakeable confidence, master their mindset, and magnify their courage.
507: Shame Resilience
Andrea Owen
We all have shame but we don’t talk about it. And it can drive our behavior to change on a dime, so how do we deal with it? How does shame affect our parenting? Hunter talks to life coach Andrea Owen about how to become shame resilient and how to help our kids avoid being driven by shame.
Ep 507- Shame Resilience
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*This is an auto-generated transcript*
[00:00:00] Andrea Owen: So much of parenting is looking at your own stuff and trying to do differently while simultaneously healing your own parts of you. Doing that at the same time has been complicated and hard and beautiful and all of the things.
[00:00:18] Hunter: You're listening to The Mindful Parenting Podcast, episode number 508. Today, we're talking about shame resilience with Andrea Owen.
Welcome to The Mindful Parenting Podcast. Here, it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Parenting, we know that you cannot give what you do not have, and when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clarke-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years, I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course, and I'm the author of the international bestseller, Raising Good Humans, and now, Raising Good Humans Every Day. 50 simple ways to press pause, stay present, and connect with your kids. Hey there! I am so glad you're here.
Welcome, welcome. If you have gotten some value from this podcast in the past, please do the podcast a favor in a saturated world and help us grow the show by telling a friend about it. Just one friend. You just make a huge difference, and I hugely appreciate it. In just a moment I'm going to be sitting down with Andrea Owen, keynote speaker, life coach, author, hell raiser. Andrea Owen is creating global impact on women's empowerment with her books, being translated into 19 languages and available in 23 countries. She helps high achieving women maximize unshakable confidence, master their mindset, and magnify their courage. And we're going to talk about shame and shame resilience. We all have shame, but we don't talk about it. And it can drive our behavior to change on a dime, right? So we need to deal with it. How do we deal with it? And it really comes up in our parenting, right? How does shame affect our parenting? We're going to be talking about that. And we're going to also be talking about how to help our kids avoid being driven by shame as well. This is a very powerful episode. I know you're going to love it, so join me at the table as I talk to Andrea Owen.
Andrea, welcome to the Mindful Parenting podcast. I'm so glad you're here. Thank you so much for having me, Hunter. I'm happy to be here. All right. So I'm excited. We're going to be talking about all kinds of things, like we're going to talk about shame resilience. We're going to talk about the idea of giving Fs, or not giving Fs about things. But before we dive into this, I know you're a parent, we'd like to start this podcast by talking about, like, how were you raised and how was your childhood like? Is it different from the way you're raising your own kids?
[00:03:03] Andrea Owen: Yeah, mine was pretty uneventful. I am the youngest of five, but I have four older half siblings. So I am the only child, I was the only child of my parents. They brought two children each from their marriage, and so it was like I had siblings but didn't have siblings, and also had the benefit of growing up an only child and having all of my parents love and attention, but also having like part time siblings. So it was a roller coaster in that regard. And I was very lucky in a sense that, my parents were very affectionate and loving and grew up working class really and moved into middle class in the later 80s, which you know, I think is similar to a lot of people when the economy was booming back then. But it wasn't until much later and I got into parenting myself did I, and some hard stuff happened as life happens and also getting into personal development that I realized that there wasn't a lot of emotional support.
[00:04:02] Hunter: And growing up Gen X, not alone there. My dad called it he called it benign neglect.
[00:04:06] Andrea Owen: Yeah. Which is- yeah, that's a fair term. And it's not that it was abusive by any regard, but it does, it creates an impact when you're not taught or even acknowledged and seen. For your feelings and emotions and, being dismissed, which was my experience. And so trying to answer the question around, how am I trying to parent differently than I was parented, which has been a roller coaster. Sometimes I get it right. Sometimes I get it wrong. I know when you were on my show, we talked about this too, that so much of parenting I'm sure I'm not the first person to come on here and say this. So much of parenting is looking at your own stuff and trying to do differently while simultaneously healing your own parts of you that need reparenting. Doing that at the same time has been complicated and hard and beautiful and all of the things.
[00:04:57] Hunter: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you. What's your relation? Are you good with your parents now? Are you, have you guys talked about some of those things?
[00:05:04] Andrea Owen: My dad passed away in 2016 and before he died he also got sober when I was 18, which was a pivotal moment in, of course, his life, but also my life and paved the way for me to get sober when I was 36 or 37. I was a very high functioning alcoholic, knew what was in store for me if I kept drinking. So I quit before I. Quote, unquote, got ahead. And so my dad was starting to scratch the surface with his own personal growth journey. And he was, late to the game, but I do think he did some work and he and I had some really great conversations about it. It's been trickier with my mother who's still here and we have a complicated relationship. We're working on it. I can say I'm working on it, but sometimes I'm not, met in the middle and it can be. Heartbreaking.
[00:05:53] Hunter: Yeah. Yeah, I know what you mean about the, I I feel similarly, I guess I, with my father I feel like I've done like a lot of things, like I've really tried to really understood like where he's come from, a lot of forgiveness, a lot of understanding, definitely all that has happened. And also found myself at a place where I'm still like, but you're not, There's so much you could do, I don't know. And some, so I found I've it was funny cause like last year, recently, I was like angry, all over again. And I'm like oh these things, I guess they cycle through. I don't know.
[00:06:28] Andrea Owen: Yeah, what's interesting to me, and I'm curious what your experience is that I have found like, so I just turned 49 this week, and we never saw being a child to our parents.There's still so many things that, I want my parents approval. It pains me incredibly to know that their opinion of me isn't, great, like that they're, that I disappointed them in some way, and it's these are the things I didn't think about growing up, and I don't even know if my mom realizes that. It's, “you're still my mom. I still need you to mother me, even though I'm so much older”. So that's something I'm going to definitely take with me as my kids, grow into adulthood that we never stop being in this relationship, in this parent child relationship, even when they become adults.
[00:07:12] Hunter: Yeah, I guess that's definitely true for me wanting that. Approval, I don't think my dad has read through my books, and that kills me. I'm like, gosh, I get that there's such short books, I can't read these stupid books. Feeling like you're in fourth grade all over again, yeah. It's mean. They're published by a publisher, Dad, couldn't you? Oh my God. Okay, so I was looking at your bio and checking out some things about you. I want to know about roller derby and I want to know about Veronica Vane. That is really fascinating. How did you get involved in roller derby?
[00:07:54] Andrea Owen: I was interested, there was a roller derby revival around 2004, 2005 in Austin, Texas, and I was watching from then. I had only seen roller derby in the 1970s, and it was, the revival was definitely different from our mama's roller derby days and I wasn't, I'm a big competitive sports person growing up, I was a high school cheerleader, I had nothing against that, but I just was so fascinated by. The counter, like the subculture of it and the athleticism of these women. And so I followed it for a while and then we moved, I'm from San Diego, we moved from San Diego to the state of Utah and they had a roller derby league in the city that we moved to. So I went to, it's called About. I went and I, I just was feeling the pull to try out, but I was so nervous. And so I went and talked to them when I bought my tickets.
[00:08:43] Hunter: I have to ask, were you, cause I was like a really big, Roller skating kid, like I did a lot of roller skating. We had that 10 year old roller skating birthday party. Totally. I had my knees still have scars from like tons of roller skating. Is that, was that who you were? 100%.
[00:08:59] Andrea Owen: Yes. And I think we're about the same age. So I, yes. Roller skating. I had a roller skating belt that had a rainbow on it. Like all of those things. And so I, and I roller did rollerblading in the 90s too, but hadn't been on skates for a minute. And yeah, and it was honestly like one of those things where I imagined myself 10, 20, 30 years into the future, and then seeing Derby with like my daughter or something, and then just mentioning yeah, I always wanted to try out for that. And then if she asked me why I didn't. I would have to tell her that I was too intimidated, that I was scared, that I felt like I was too old. Because I was in like my mid late thirties by then. Yeah. I didn't want to have that conversation with her or anybody. And so I jumped and I tried out and I had to train and derby. You can choose a roller derby name, like you don't have to there's some controversy around it. I did end up choosing one. And Veronica Vane, many times are. Roller derby name is our alter ego and so that was mine. She, it was more important to her to look amazing out on the track than to skate well and so that's how the name was born.
[00:10:04] Hunter: That's amazing. I love that. That's such a cool story of like your storytelling self oh, you're tapping into this storytelling self to help. Your experiential self who's in the moment Oh God, this is super intimidating. Yeah. Jump into something that's a little It's sometimes I ask my daughter the question what are you going to regret more? Yeah. Going to this or not going to this.
[00:10:28] Andrea Owen: Yeah. Like It's a good question. Yeah. And for me, it was, I would vastly regret not at least trying. And I, what I did for myself is I said and this is the same thing I do with my kids, like when they don't want to go somewhere, I'll say okay, go for 10 minutes. And if you hate it, if it sucks I'll just pick you up. Like you can leave. Not with all things, but like school dances or, sleepovers that they, they're I don't know if I want to go and that type of thing. So that's what I did for myself. If I go and I hate it or I'm terrible at it, or if everyone's mean to me, then I can leave. And none of those things happened. So I ended up staying until I got injured. It was like the most fun year of my life.
[00:11:04] Hunter: It sounds great. It's amazing. I still I pulled out my roller skates like a little few days, a little while ago. And I was like, wow, why we just roller skated around the neighborhood? Huh. I was like, this is a lot more work.
[00:11:14] Andrea Owen: It is a lot of work. One of the hardest workouts I've ever done, honestly. Burns. And it hurts to fall down.
[00:11:27] Hunter: Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcast right after this break.
[00:13:19] Hunter: Now you're a life coach, you talk a lot about women's empowerment. How did you get into this kind of work?
[00:13:25] Andrea Owen: I've always been like the consummate cheerleader. I have an outgoing personality. I'm, if you need a hype girl I've always been that person. And I started out. A hundred years ago I started out actually in the fashion and merchandising industry. I worked in a couple of different careers for that and then ended up going back to school getting my degree in exercise physiology and was in the fitness industry, which is adjacent to life coaching and just, I've always been interested in wellness in general. And my personal training clients would come to me and it's like a hairdresser, like they tell us like what's going on in their life and I noticed that a lot of my clients really struggled with their self confidence and just like wanting to commit to these bigger goals that were beyond their fitness goals that they just had all these excuses for or, came down to a lot of worthiness issues and, like I mentioned, self confidence.
Which is what brought me to life coaching because I felt like fitness wasn't enough. Like fitness was just the doorway to that. And so that's when I went and got my certification. I had no idea what it would bring me. Here I am, three books later, writing my fourth- success beyond my wildest dreams, honestly- and getting certified in shame work. Are you kidding? If you would have asked me that 15, 20 years ago, I would have laughed hysterically that I would be interested in that type of work. But it's really brought me to my knees to be frank with you. From a personal growth standpoint and also an entrepreneurship standpoint, but I wouldn't train it for the world. I feel like it's where my talent and strength lies. And sometimes I shake my fist at the sky and say couldn't I have just stayed a personal trainer? I feel like it would have been so much easier on my heart and my stress level. But yeah, that's how I ended up here for the sake of telling a dramatic story, which I love to do.
[00:15:06] Hunter: Let's talk about shame then. We, of course, learned about it from the work of Brene Brown and so many of us deal with it. Why is it so toxic? How does it affect our parenting? How does it affect our relationships?
[00:15:21] Andrea Owen: Yeah, and speaking of Brene Brown, I went and got certified in her work in 2014 and have never looked back. I'm obsessed with getting to the root of the problem, and for most of us, this is it. We all have shame but we don't talk about it, I feel like enough. The only people that don't experience shame are psychopaths and sociopaths and really, your question around, like, why is it so toxic is because it's one of those. Experiences that can change behavior on a dime. It works. I think probably every person listening has an experience where they have either been shamed on purpose by someone, a teacher, a parent, someone else, or accidentally shamed. So they walk into a situation that's shaming and it's really by no fault of someone else. It wasn't done intentionally. Either way, it can make you behave in ways that you're not proud of. A lot of people fight shame with shame. They'll throw it back. Or people isolate and they just completely go inward. They won't show up to different events. They'll stop, relationships because of it, or they will go overboard in terms of people pleasing, quote unquote, brown nosing That's, those are like the three main sort of reactions that we have to shame, but again, I think everyone here listening can think of an experience, especially in childhood where it has changed us, not for the better, and again, it's one of those things that it can be a great motivator, not in a great way, just in terms of because it can change behavior on a dime, however, the long term effects can be incredibly destructive.
[00:17:10] Hunter: Yeah, I could see that. I think I don't know, thinking back to, my childhood one of the things that my family, because I was I was outgoing, and I was so highly sensitive, but also very loud, and I would say everything a lot, and I was shamed for being annoying, As a kid and by my family. And, man, that is like so deep if I'm worried if that comes up, that whole are you annoying people? Oh, it's it just, it's you could just feel it so right in the center. Yeah.
[00:17:45] Andrea Owen: And I want to pause on that because that's what shame does. And we call shame a full contact emotion of the full contact experience. You feel it in your body. And that's part of the work that I do when I take people through this work is what can be helpful. And I might be jumping ahead here. What can be helpful is for you to understand and get intimate with how shame feels in your body. Okay. And not so that you can get rid of it, like we can't, it's a universal experience, you will experience it again at some point, I'm sorry. But the faster you can understand that it's happening in your body and to you and why it's happening. So for you, I would take you through an exercise where we talk more about those triggers about, because you don't want to be perceived as annoying. We all have ways of that we don't want to be perceived. And we all have ways that ideally we want to be perceived too. In different areas of your life, they can look different. So this, I, again, like I get excited talking about like the how, when, why, where of how to establish and learn shame resilience because it's, again, it's not about getting rid of it. It's learning how to become resilient to it.
[00:18:51] Hunter: Yeah, so we're, we all have a lot of it really stems from childhood and where we're wanting to look at it to understand what are some of the most common shame triggers that people have.
[00:19:04] Andrea Owen: So for women they're gender specific and I'll talk about men and women. So for women, it tends to be around our body and appearance, tends to be number one. And I don't think anybody can argue that we live in a culture that is, beauty and youth obsessed. And girls learn at a fairly young age where our value is. And it is, how we show up, our, the shape of our bodies, depending on culture, et cetera. For men, a lot of times it's based on their masculinity and how they show up in the world in that regard. And then, when they get older, it's things like, their financial stability, their status. And also, partnerships and things like that whether you get partnered or not. A lot of it's cultural, like, how we decided as a culture and as a society what is better than the other. And those are the the sort of the more obvious ones. And I also want to make the distinction, too, is that shame is rooted in connection versus disconnection. When you feel like you are. Going with the flow and you are showing up as like traditional beauty standards here in the U. S., in the West. And then we will most likely feel more connected to people. When we don't feel that way, we feel disconnected. And that's where like the impact happens in our bodies, like the feeling, because as humans, we are meant to be connected. They say that, like trauma is created in relationships and it's also healed in relationships as well. And we're meant to be connected with each other and we will die without it. We will literally die without connection. So it's a very real thing and I believe that this is why, I'm sure that the research says this is why it's, A full body experience that we have, like our body is trying to tell us something, like when we are feeling disconnected, when we are feeling shame, we feel it viscerally in our bodies.
[00:21:04] Hunter: Yeah, I guess if we look back the roots of it, it's like we are the most socially connected people. primates ever to exist. We're like the ants of the primate world, where all of our everything, where we've gotten to this point where we're dominating the earth is that is because of our cooperation and our connection. So yeah, it becomes, like, the most important thing, and so we want to stay in the in group, except the problem is that in group is so big. It's like just way too big for us, like way more than what a hundred people would be in like a hunter gathered.
[00:21:41] Andrea Owen: Exactly, it’s a lot of boxes to check off.
[00:21:42] Hunter: Yeah, and then some groups are like, pride you for being, against the establishment. It's very confusing. How do we know when shame is running this?
[00:21:55] Andrea Owen: Sometimes they're more obvious, like when we know we're in a shaming situation. If you get reprimanded at work in front of a lot of people, that's a more obvious situation. However I typically don't talk about and teach shame from that regard. So my second book is all about this and it's called “How to Stop Feeling Like S-h-i-t”. I don't know if I can cuss on your show, but it is “14 Habits That Are Holding You Back from Happiness”. And I don't love the subtitle, by the way, everybody, publishers, but it's these behaviors that we do that are very common. So it's things like people pleasing. Isolating, numbing out, perfectionism, blaming, control caring too much so other people think. Like those types of behaviors that we do in order to try to avoid shame. So I I joke that, perfectionism and control got me to graduate with honors from college.
And it was because, I didn't want the shame, this was all unconscious, I didn't want the shame of. flunking out because I'd flunked out of junior college a few years prior, so I knew that shame. So I didn't want it. And so again, it's not about not doing the behaviors. It's about knowing when you're in these poor coping mechanisms so that you can try to course correct. But when we are doing any of these behaviors, the isolating, the numbing out, the people pleasing, the perfectionism, shame is running the show. Because I haven't met anyone, client or otherwise, who comes to me and we always talk about values, like what's important about the way that you live your life. Never one of them has said perfectionism, numbing out, isolating instead of connecting, blaming others. No, nobody does. It's things like courage and authenticity and creativity and Connection and personal growth. Do you see the, how the disconnect happens?
[00:23:52] Hunter: I do, but yeah, the people pleasing would be, it's like the dark side of connection in some way, but they're almost like the same thing.
It's like something gone to an extreme, right? I'm, actually, I'm struggling right now because my dear friend her father died and they're having a memorial for him and she has told me about this. I can't believe I'm talking to a person from a small state who wants me to go to this event. And it's a two and a half hour drive away, and I have to drive there for two and a half hours, and then have to drive back for two and a half hours. So for a person from two very small states, that's a lot of driving for me! I don't know why I don't I'm gonna, I'm, I've been like flipping back and forth, but I'm gonna be going and doing all this driving because I love my friend. I want to be there for her. But is that people pleasing? I don't know. Like, how does one tell what is that, what are those things, right? I think
[00:24:47] Andrea Owen: for that particular example, and thank you for bringing that up. That's a great example. In my opinion, in my professional opinion, it would be people pleasing if you feel like a boundary, whether the boundary has been established or not has been crossed. So say for instance, because that's a fairly big ask, to have somebody come out for one day, five plus hours of driving with you probably having to stop and things like that. If the person would have said, can you also bring a cake and a veggie tray? And can you come early to help me set up? Like I can see your, for people that can't see Hunter's face, like you're cringing right now. So Basically, you've already set a boundary in your mind of you're going to come to the memorial and you're going to come home, you're going to show up for your friend. So when you are going above and beyond that boundary, if you are either volunteering because you think that you should to be a good friend, even though you don't want to, or you're saying yes, if they ask you to do those extras, that would be people placing. And that is most often rooted in core boundaries.
[00:25:49] Hunter: Core boundaries. Wanting to avoid shame. Wanting to avoid shame. Okay. Okay. Alright let's then talk about shame resilience. How do we avoid getting stuck by shame? How do I avoid getting stuck by the, oh my god, they'll think I'm annoying.
[00:26:08] Andrea Owen: Help me! Help me! Yes, I would, okay, I would love to, we can use that example. And I'm so glad that you asked it in the way that you did. And I want to underscore that because you said, how can we avoid getting stuck? That's the key. So I'm going to say this until the cows come home. You, we cannot avoid having shame altogether, but we can avoid being stuck in it and making our decisions from that place. Because I think all of us, whether you know it or not, you have made a decision from shame. You have gone overboard. So let's use the example of you and your friend. The effort to avoid shame would be that you don't want to be perceived as a bad friend. And especially this tends to be gender specific for women in that we grow up in a culture where we're taught that.
Other people's comfort needs to come before our own. We are, we never rock the boat. We don't want to inconvenience anyone. It's, gone over the edge of just being nurturing and taking care of people. Like we many times take it to the extreme, like selfless is the only way to be. Anything else is selfish. That's what we're trying to avoid. So let's, If we're talking about the steps of shame resilience, and there's a handful of steps, I want to use that, the one that you mentioned about how you don't want to, your trigger is around being annoying. So the first thing that, that we need to do is to understand, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, what happens to our bodies. Knowing that we are in it. Because. You gotta name it to tame it. If you don't know what's happening, you're just gonna walk around and, go about your usual self and you don't know, and that's when bad things can happen. So you have to, and what I do when I work with clients is, We have this whole thing that we go through physiologically what happens in your body. For most people do you know what happens to your body if you're in shame, if that happens? Yes. What is, what are the symptoms?
[00:28:04] Hunter: It's in the pit at the bottom, base of my neck, deep in my throat, is like a very uncomfortable, tickly pit feeling, right? They're at like the top of my heart, base of my throat. That's where I feel. Interesting.
[00:28:18] Andrea Owen: Yeah so mine is more I feel really hot. All of a sudden I can feel myself fleshing, and I get tunnel vision. If it's really bad, I'll get tunnel vision everything starts to slow down. I also sometimes my armpits tingle, which is not that uncommon. Yeah, you just, you have to know what your own physiological symptoms are. For most people, it's like somewhere in their torso, either stomach, chest, or throat, somewhere in there, or all of those things. So first is knowing what happens to you physiologically. And then understanding why you're in it. So this goes back to when we talked about the triggers. So I take people through an exercise where we talk about your, it's called ideal and unwanted identities. So one of your unwanted identities is you don't want to be perceived by other people as being annoying. As parents, we have ideal and unwanted identities that we want to be seen as, and don't want to be seen as, if we are partnered. So as a mother. You probably have ways that you want to be perceived by your husband in ways that you would never want to be perceived as a mother specifically. For example, will you tell me, like, how do you want to be, like, if you overheard him talking about you and it was amazing, what would you want him to be saying specifically about your parenting?
[00:29:40] Hunter: I would want to say she really listens and is there and is really connected to the girls. That's what I would want him to say.
[00:29:50] Andrea Owen: And then how would you never want to be perceived by him as a parent?
[00:29:55] Hunter: Oh I don't know, super angry or yeah, the extremes of either just like annoying and placating. Yeah.
[00:30:05] Andrea Owen: I work with clients and I have more time. We get, we look at all the areas of their life, work in partnerships, in your friendships, as a community member, and we make lists of them. Because again, like I want you to get intimate with how this is showing up in your life.
[00:30:24] Hunter: Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break.
[00:31:17] Andrea Owen: Cruddy thing is that we have no control how other people perceive us. We have very little control, if any. And we're going to make mistakes, like you're going to have moments where you get angry, and you're not proud of how you showed up. So what then ends up happening is that for most of us, we go in this cycle of trying to when we are perceived as one of our unwanted identities, when we're perceived as annoying. Or when we're perceived as angry by other people, what usually ends up happening is that we try harder to get to our ideal identities.
So this is where the people pleasing starts. This is where the perfectionism starts. So you might so for example, if you make a mistake at work and people notice, you drop the ball on a project or something like that, what a lot of people might do is start working a lot of overtime, coming in early, making sure everybody knows that you're, you're taking on extra work. You are crossing boundaries, doing things that you don't want to do in order to make up for. this mistake that you made, trying to avoid shame. And really the, where the resilience is and this is the, going on to the next step, is two main things. And the research shows that self compassion, which is something that we give ourselves, we are speaking to ourself with kindness, we are giving ourselves grace, we are letting ourselves off the hook, forgiving ourselves, that's self kindness.
And then the second piece is empathy. And we get empathy from other people. We can't do that by ourselves. So that's where, if anyone's listening who's familiar with Brené Brown's work she says we tell people who've earned the right to hear our story. We tell our shame stories to people who've earned the right to hear them and our hope is that you are met with empathy. And this is typically a skill that is learned, not something that we know how to do. I think especially if you were raised in our generation, we probably weren't modeled that growing up with, like parents with a lot of empathy and compassion. We it is a skill that, that we have to learn it's acknowledging someone else's stuff. If I come to you as a friend and say, Andre, I made the biggest mistake at work. I was just mortified by it. I missed an important client meeting and now everybody knows it and I don't know what to do. For you to empathize with me, you would say. Oh my gosh. Dang.
[00:33:46] Hunter: Yeah. Tell me, how would you empathize? Thanks. That must feel terrible. I'm so sorry. That must feel really hard. Thank you. A plus.
[00:33:58] Andrea Owen: But what a lot of times people do is they might be You know oh, it's not that bad, or, oh, everybody loves you, you're fine, or, how could you be so careless? Dismissing. Or, we've all been, in those situations that we weren't met with empathy, but that is the crash course, five minute, ten minute version of what shame resilience looks like. I give, when I teach it, I give a lot more examples and more engagement with people and more examples but it's, it takes practice. It takes a lot of practice and. But it can change your life, really, and especially, like, when you can teach it to your kids.
[00:34:31] Hunter: Yeah, that's what I was going to be my next question, but this is affirming for me to hear because in Mindful Parenting, Module 3 is all about self compassion and Module 4 is all about reflective listening, empathetic listening. So how do we do this? If we, we can understand, obviously, we don't love. That we're going to feel shame again in the future. We don't love being driven by shame. We can practice to make ourselves more resilient and cope better, but how can we help our kids to avoid being driven by shame, to avoid some of this in the future, maybe a percentage of it?
[00:35:12] Andrea Owen: I think depending on age, when I, let me back up. So when my kids were in elementary school, I started talking to them. There's two, two specific things that I did, fairly young, and it doesn't matter if you're, your kids are older, you can still talk to them about this. I made, and this is one of the things I very intentionally and consciously wanted to have different for my kids than what I got is I told them over and over again, your feelings are never wrong. Your feelings are never wrong. Whatever your feeling is right for you, what you are responsible for is your behavior that comes from those feelings. I always told them like, you're allowed to be angry with me. What I won't tolerate is name calling, being nasty, slamming doors whatever the boundaries are in your house.
But I just wanted them to grow up to know that their feelings were okay because I think so many of us grow up not being, like, feeling wrong for our emotions, being told we're wrong for our emotions, being told how we should feel, being told how we shouldn't feel, being dismissed, not being seen in our emotions, and that can create long lasting emotional damage, problems. And, it can bleed into our relationships, etc. So there was that piece. And then also, what I started to notice in elementary school is when my kids would have a long day at school and be overstimulated and get in the car and, and of course, tell me like the rotten things that happened that day, I did my best to meet them with empathy instead of, especially if they told me like some kid was messing with them. I'm like, who are their parents? That's what it's like. But first, empathize. Sometimes I would tell them an anecdote that I remember from elementary school, not happening to me, just to be able to let them know they're not alone in, in what they're feeling and experiencing.
And just let them talk it out. And exactly like the example that you gave, like that sounds like a rough day, kiddo. Man, that I wish that I would have been there to be able to give you a hug. Can I give you a hug now? Just those are the two main things that I tried my best to teach them. Did it always land? Probably not. Did it land some of the time and be helpful? I think so. I hope so. Yeah. So those are like the two big things. Yeah.
[00:37:28] Hunter: Yeah. That. I see you. I hear you. I'm acknowledging your hurt. I'm acknowledging your feelings. I'm acknowledging what you said to me and that was hard. That piece about acknowledgement, like it's so hard because the feelings are so uncomfortable that we just want to make it better. It comes from a nice, a good place in some ways, but it's, we all just need that piece of Oh, You really see me, you really hear me, it's just this incredibly healing to be seen, to be heard, to be, have someone be really present with you.
[00:38:01] Andrea Owen: And to be understood. I want to pause there because what you said was so important and profound. I don't think that ever ends for us as human beings as we get older, but I think it can be incredibly impactful If we teach our children from a young age that we are safe, that we are a soft and safe place to land. Because then they are more likely to come to us with big things like, drugs and alcohol or sex or, just whatever these big things that happen that come up in the, in the tween and teen years and into young adulthood. If we already have that foundation and established that, and I don't think it's too late.
I think that if your kids are older what I would recommend is having a very transparent conversation. And saying what I wish that I would have done more when you were younger is this. And you map it out and I'm trying to do better and I hope that you give me an opportunity as your parent to do better and, here's what I'm going to, do you know what I mean? Like I just, there's so much to be said for transparency and just owning and taking responsibility for mistakes that we've made as parents and trying to do better. And that is like one of the most vulnerable things I think we can do.
[00:39:21] Hunter: Yeah, but it's so lovely to open up that depth of humanity to our kids and in an authentic way and they really, I think kids really respond to us when we are being really authentic rather than defensive or posturing or whatever, these sort of habitual things that are that we do. Oh, my goodness. So we've talked about shame, resilience, all of these things, but what is this, you say that this idea of giving zero Fs is actually harming us. Can you just? Let us, what's up with that?
[00:39:54] Andrea Owen: It's funny. I wrote that chapter and this was like in 2016, 2017, where I think that meme of she gave zero X and lived, zero F's and lived happily ever after. It was a meme that was super popular and, it was on t shirts and. It's had some life. Yeah. It definitely took off. And I think it's toxic. I think so many personal development things have been miniaturized for social media and Pinterest and things like that. But that one in particular. I wanted to write an entire chapter about because I work with a lot of people who either, a lot of them are people pleasers, they struggle with boundaries as many of us do. And so they think that they need to go all the way, that the pendulum needs to swing all the way over, that they don't care at all about what other people think. And this is an impossible goal. We are humans. We've established in this conversation that we are meant for connection. And so what I encourage people to do is get very clear on like, where are the medium at? Care about the right things. Care about the opinions of the right people in your life. And sometimes it's not your mom. I'm assuming like the opinions of your children matter to you. I'm assuming the opinions of your partner or maybe a mentor or a close friend. Those are the people. Get clear on like why their opinion matters, but it does not have to be black or white one or the other. And, yeah, it's just, that's basically it. Just, no, no one cares. Zero. And if they do, if they say that, They're lying. Yeah. They're probably hurting a lot and need some, need a hug or something like that, but yeah, medium F's.
[00:41:32] Hunter: Okay, yeah. I know, but then you say that really ties into what we were saying because we were talking about how you communicate with your kids and stuff like that and sometimes Our attitude, especially with maybe like teen or tweens giving us an attitude, is that I don't give a, I give zero Fs about what you're, but we actually do care that they have given us an attitude in what they're saying. And in those moments, it's we actually have to show the underlying of Hey, when you talk to me like that, it hurts. Yeah. I give zero Fs and you can't hurt me kind of thing, right? I love that. I love that your answer is like, this is not about caring about everybody, it's not about caring about nobody. It's about the middle path. We are interconnected human beings and of course we care about each other and of course it's beautiful.
[00:42:17] Andrea Owen: It doesn't need to be strangers on the internet, but it could be, the people that are closest to you that you care about.
[00:42:23] Hunter: Andrea, tell the listener about your podcast. And of course you can find, if you want to talk shame resilience. You can find her at andreaowen.com. But you also have a good podcast with amazing guests on.
[00:42:39] Andrea Owen: It is mostly- I know there's a lot of men listening, but it is mostly a women's empowerment show. Although I do have some male clients for sure. I have walked many a man through shame, resilience or other kind of coaching, but it's called “Make Some Noise with Andrea Owen”, and you've been a guest, so definitely check that out. And I'm @HeyAndreaOwen, on all the social channels.
[00:42:59] Hunter: Andrea, this has been such a pleasure. I really enjoyed talking to you. I loved coming and talking to you on your podcast. I really appreciate this conversation about shame and all the work you've done with it. Thanks for indulging me and talking to me about roller derby. I love that. My pleasure. So awesome. Yes, go forth and roll that shame. Right out the door. I love that. Thank you.
[00:43:24] Andrea Owen: Thank you so much. Yeah, my pleasure. And thanks everyone for listening. I'm grateful for everyone's time.
[00:43:33] Hunter: Hey, I hope you loved this episode. I hope it was good for you. It was good for me. I learned things and helped with things, this being human business is not so easy at times. I think, I don't know. I don't know about you, but I find it not so easy. And then especially with, all the pressures and responsibilities and all that stuff it's not so easy.
So I hope this episode helped you to water some good seeds, and that's what I want it to do. If you liked the episode, please help the podcast. It's now a very saturated podcast world, And we need your help to keep the Mindful Parenting podcast going. Please tell a friend about it, share it on social media, leave a rating and review. All that stuff really helps. Man, it was so different. I started the podcast in 2013. And it was very different, a very different world then. I love all the podcasts out there. I think it's amazing and I want that and I want to keep creating this awesome podcast with you, for you, so yeah, support it. Help tell one friend that makes a huge difference. And I hope that this podcast helps you and helps your family and helps you be more present for your kids and in all the ways. that you need to be, and I'm wishing you the best. Thank you so much for listening. Namaste.
[00:45:11] Mindful Mama Member: I'd say definitely do it. It's really helpful. It will change your relationship with your kids for the better. It will help you communicate better and just, I'd say, communicate better as a person, as a wife, as a spouse. It's been really a positive influence in our lives. So definitely do it. I'd say definitely do it. It's so worth it. The money really is inconsequential when you get so much. I would say definitely do it. It's so worth it. It'll change you. No matter what age someone's child is, it's a great opportunity for personal growth and it's a great investment in someone's family. I'm very thankful I have this. You can continue in your old habits that aren't working for Where you can learn some new tools and gain some perspective to shift everything in your parenting.
[00:46:14] Hunter: Are you frustrated by parenting? Do you listen to the experts and try all the tips and strategies, but you're just not seeing the results that you want? Or are you lost as to where to start? Does it all seem so overwhelming with too much to learn? Are you yearning for community people who get it, who also don't want to threaten and punish to create cooperation?
Hi, I'm Hunter Clarke-Fields, and if you answered yes to any of these questions, I want you to seriously consider the Mindful Parenting Membership. You will be joining hundreds of members who have discovered the path of mindful parenting, and now have confidence and clarity in their parenting. This isn't just another parenting class. This is an opportunity to really discover your unique, lasting relationship, not only with your children, but with yourself. It will translate into lasting, connected relationships, not only with your children, but your partner too. Let me change your life. Go to MindfulParentingCourse.com to add your name to the waitlist, so you will be the first to be notified when I open the membership for enrollment. I look forward to seeing you on the inside. MindfulParentingCourse.com.
Are you passionate about parenting and maybe want to become a parenting coach? Perhaps you're a teacher, a therapist, doula, or simply a parenting junkie. Then let me tell you about the Mindful Parenting Teacher and Coach Training Program. It's a five month intensive program. It's an intensive program that can be done from anywhere around the world and gives you everything you need to bring mindful parenting to the people in your life.
Here's what people have said about it:
[00:48:05] Mindful Mama Member: Hunter's program that really drew me in was that it wasn't just on, like, how do we practice mindfulness? It incorporated the communication and the problem solving and, went a lot deeper. It was really amazing to be going through this process and have that Weekly support that extended beyond just our teacher training, really. The whole process was really well laid out and organized, and having the materials from a teacher perspective was really nice as well. The course is so thorough you're given every single bit of material that you could possibly need. This is really a community reaching far and wide. And I think that this program, because it works on decreasing your inner stress response and taking care of yourself, so then you can give that back to your children and model that behavior for your children as they're growing up into adulthood. Just seeing the positive changes in my own family and knowing that as I continue to spread that into the community, that will be like, just even more far reaching.
[00:49:04] Hunter: Enrollment is open now and there are limited spots available. Step into your dream of becoming a Mindful Parenting coach. Find out more at mindfulparentingcourse.com/teach. That's mindfulparentingcourse.com/teach.
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