Dr. Tovah P. Klein, PhD. is a psychology professor at Barnard College, Columbia University; Director of the Center for Toddler Development; and author of "Raising Resilience: How to Help Our Children Thrive in Times of Uncertainty" and "How Toddlers Thrive: What Parents Can Do Today for Children Ages 2-5 to Plant the Seeds of Lifelong Success"
511: Understanding Toddlers & Preschoolers
Dr. Tovah Klein
What makes a child succeed…or wander into an unfulfilled adulthood? New research indicates that the seeds for adult success are often planted in the toddler years, ages 2-5.
Dr. Tovah Klein cracks the preschooler code, revealing what you can do to help your toddler grow into a fulfilled child and adult—including how to handle bedtime and sibling fighting.
Ep 511- Understanding Toddlers & Preschoolers
Read the Transcript 🡮
*This is an auto-generated transcript*
[00:00:00] Dr. Tovah Klein: I had this sense that the adults didn't really understand children. I think that may be one piece that got me interested in toddlers because if there's a not well understood group of people, it's children like under the age of five and the younger you get, I think the less we understand the world because it's so different than ours.
[00:00:25] Hunter: You're listening to the Mindful Parenting Podcast, episode number 511. Today, we're talking about understanding toddlers and preschoolers with Dr. Tovah Klein.
Welcome to the Mindful Parenting Podcast. Here, it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. In Mindful Parenting, we know that you cannot give what you do not have. And when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clarke-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children.
I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course and teacher training. I am the author of the international bestseller Raising Good Humans Every Day, and the Raising Good Humans Guided Journal. Hey there and welcome to the podcast, so glad you are here.
This is going to be an awesome episode because, man, if you have been a parent for a minute or two, you totally understand how toddlers and preschoolers are mind bogglingly frustrating sometimes. In a minute, I'm going to be talking to Dr. Tovah Klein, a psychology professor at Barnard College, Columbia University, director of the Center for Toddler Development and author of Raising Resilience, How to Help Our Children Thrive in Times Like These.
of Uncertainty, and How Toddlers Thrive. What Parents Can Do Today for Children Ages 2 to 5 to Plant the Seeds of Lifelong Success. And I loved talking to Tova. It was really a great conversation. I know that you are going to get so much out of it. We are going to talk about what makes a child succeed Or instead wander into some kind of unfulfilled adulthood that we really don't want.
New research indicates that the seeds for adult success are often planted actually in the toddler years, ages two to five. So we're going to crack that preschooler code and reveal to you what you can do to help your toddler grow into a fulfilled child and adult, including how to handle bedtime and sibling fighting.
Before we dive in, I just want to let you know, if you have Raising Good Humans, which is great, it's wonderful, you should get Raising Good Humans every day. I am so proud of this book. I love this book so much. It's the perfect bedside book with 50 short chapters. They're literally like two and three pages each, and it also goes beyond Raising Good Humans to give you more in this like really bite sized manner.
Get yourself a copy of Raising Good Humans Every Day or give it to a friend. Maybe you can text that friend's episode and give them Raising Good Humans Every Day. But yeah, seriously, it's a great gift. So yeah, join me at the table as I talk to Dr. Tovah Klein.
Tovah, thank you so much for coming on the Mindful Parenting Podcast. That's awesome. I'm so happy to be here. I love talking to people who are like experts in toddlers and things like that because I was, I'm not, I was not like a natural kid person and I was like always like amazed at the people who were like really into toddlers and small children, wow, you're like a special breed of people who are very into toddlers, and so I'm just curious about like for you, what was it, maybe like what your childhood was like, but also what got you fascinated by toddlers? By
[00:03:47] Dr. Tovah Klein: these very little people? We're not quite in our world yet.
Yeah. I grew up I grew up in Ohio and in Cleveland Heights, just right outside of Cleveland. And it was, you might say, some swamp in the middle. We grew up at a time that I think there was a lot of freedom for children. Some children have that today, some don't. But, we were I don't want to say we were totally on our own.
We had very loving parents, but they went off to work, and we went off to school, and we came home, and had a lot of time, I think, with each other, squabbling, though, getting along, and and in the neighborhood with each other. For the people in my neighborhood, and friends, and this, that, and that.
I was always observing children. I think even when I was still a child myself, I was very interested in how people interacted, and I had this sense that the adults didn't really understand children. I think that really one piece that got me interested in toddlers, because if there's a not well understood group of people, it's children like under the age of five and the younger you get, I think the less we understand the world because it's so different than ours.
And it's filled with joy. I think that initially was my attraction to younger children was they communicate not with words, but with their body and their expressions and their delight or their, Upset. And that was always very interesting to me. It still is.
[00:05:13] Hunter: I forgot to ask you, Tova, do you have kids yourself?
[00:05:16] Dr. Tovah Klein: I do. I have three children, all, in the young adult, courage young adult era. I've raised three toddlers and we also have a family living with us now for him is about to be a toddler because he'll be one very soon. It's been fun to have a toddler again.
[00:05:33] Hunter: Oh my gosh. Yeah. So the craziness doesn't make you crazy.
It just makes you fascinated.
[00:05:40] Dr. Tovah Klein: Yeah. It makes me fascinated. It was much, what we do, it was much harder when it was my own toddlers, like going from work with families and young children and then coming home. It's always harder when it's your own children, but it was also really delightful. It was both. I still think it's the hardest time for parents, for myself, is when you have a house with young children because they have high needs and we have a lot of other things going on.
[00:06:06] Hunter: Yeah they're incredibly frustrating. I remember taking my daughter as a toddler to her Montessori classroom and we, she was close enough we could walk there and we'd walk and I remember one time dropping her off at this amazing teacher's classroom. Shout out Holly Knox, you're amazing, still in my life, but, and just dropping her off and then crying.
Oh, sheer. And like a difficulty of being like, okay, God, I don't, I can just I think it was like, I didn't have to hold it all together for just a second. And then all of a sudden it was like, I could just started crying. It was so amazing. But then remembering then also that Holly, when she had her own children was like, Oh my gosh, this is so hard and was so frustrated and was having difficulties when with her own children.
So then it made me think Oh, okay she's it's human too.
[00:06:59] Dr. Tovah Klein: Yeah. It would bring our human self to being a parent and if you're anywhere within a reasonable range of adults, it's very hard to contend sometimes with the challenges of the younger children and then it's equally delightful to have their joys and their really beautiful moments of connection.
[00:07:20] Hunter: So then what do we, what are we not understanding about child toddlers and preschoolers? Why are they so confounding to us parents?
[00:07:29] Dr. Tovah Klein: I think some of it is that we worry as parents that there's a linear path to development. If my child right now wants all of something and nothing was enough for them we feel like they're greedy and that they're going to always be that way as opposed to right now your three year old sees something they want and they want all of it because that's where they are in life.
I have needs. I want my needs filled and as we fill them in some reasonable way or we put up a reasonable limit like, I wish you could have more cookies. That's enough and we're going to put them away. There'll be more tomorrow or later. They'll start slowly, gradually to get more reasonable because we're reasonable.
But we see their behaviors as linear. I think we panic. But I think we're truthful with ourselves. There's so many behaviors that toddlers show us that we would like to do sometimes too. I ask my college students as I teach a course in early development. These are Barnard College and Columbia College students.
Fantastic students if you were in a toddler mind right now, what would you love to do? Some of them were like, I'd like to tap dance all the way down Broadway, 42nd Street, others are like, I'd like to just throw my gum wrapper and just throw it and not care. Because there's a sort of a freeness to toddlers as well, because they're just figuring out the world.
So it's me, who am I?
[00:08:56] Hunter: I was talking to somebody here on the podcast and they mentioned the idea of thinking about kids three and under as developmentally as still infants. And to me, that really made a lot of sense to me. I know that when my daughters were three and under, I wasn't thinking of them as infants and I was frustrated with them because I was thinking that they're so big and they should be able to do X and they should be able to do Y and they should, they should be able to listen and all these different things, but the idea of thinking of them as mentally as like more like infants really for me, it was helpful in kind of that.
having more acceptance of this phase, this part of mine. Yeah,
[00:09:38] Dr. Tovah Klein: when you think about it, a three year old, on the day they turn three, has only been in this world for 36 months. If you think back to what you were doing 36 months ago, it's it's so little time. I think what happens is, as soon as our children get some verbal ability, doesn't even have to be a lot, that we're relieved to Finally, we can communicate.
And then if you have a particularly verbal child, like a
[00:10:05] Hunter: That's what I had a very precociously verbal daughter who can speak in full paragraphs at two.
[00:10:12] Dr. Tovah Klein: And then we think that maps onto everything else, and it doesn't. I'm always saying to parents, verbal can be up here. Emotional is right where it should be, because the brain can't be faster than it's supposed to be emotionally.
And so We have a long childhood. We know now that the prefrontal cortex, so everything up here that's going to allow a child to, control their impulses, handle their emotions, but also do things like sequence, right? First I put my socks on, then I put my shoes on, the schedule, what's next?
All of those pieces are developing well into their 20s. And I feel like when that data started to come out now about 15 or more years ago, but it's still new and, in a slow field of gathering science, it was like, yeah, of course. So now go backwards. If college students or young adults are just finishing that part of their brain development, not that it's not going to adjust over time, but go backwards, then your three year old or even your five year old is very new in this world.
They might be verbal, but they're still about me. And that's what's so challenging for parents. I'm always saying, as you're pointing out, they're babies. Like when parents are very frustrated, she should know better, he doesn't do this. I say, I know, but He's more baby than big, and that's the piece to remember.
[00:11:43] Hunter: Stay tuned for more Mindful Parenting podcasts right after
[00:14:01] Hunter: Yeah, we want to rush it, we want to get them to be big and have these expectations. Although we're also told that it's good to have high expectations, right? Some people tell parents that. What do you think for?
for parents of preschoolers and toddlers. What should our, how can we right size our way of thinking about this in time?
[00:14:21] Dr. Tovah Klein: The way to think of it is, how can I respect my child as a separate human being from me, but also get that they need me? So I think of it more about respecting who they are, particularly when they're very different from Or who you thought they would be, or who you want them to be.
But also, understanding that development is up, down, up, down, up, down. Think of those good days that we have with our young child, and we're like, phew, they're finally getting it, they're growing up, they can, focus, they, easily got them to school, and then the next day it all falls apart.
That's typical development, right? So if we think of it more what are my expectations and are they too high? I think if anything, particularly with our firstborns, We tend to have expectations way too high. And if you have that verbal child like you do, like I did with my first one, like way out there, our expectations go way up because we immediately go, Oh, they're like us.
Oh, now we're on an equal playing field. I'm like no, that's a four year old and a good day. It's going to be great. On a hard day, it's going to be hard. So it's actually thinking about, so what are my expectations and are they too high? And almost any time you're having challenges with your child, your expectations are too high.
[00:15:43] Hunter: Yeah, they're not necessarily, we, it's, our mindset really shifts the way we handle those things too. If we're thinking, they're trying to manipulate me or, I hear that from my parents still. They know what they're doing, they're trying to do this, or they're giving me a problem, or things like that, but if we think about it instead as they're having a problem, or I don't know, are, what are some of the kind of Are there things that parents are still thinking that you notice like that sort of assigning intent?
[00:16:12] Dr. Tovah Klein: Yeah, I think it's probably feeling richer and then with all the pressures on parents and all the sort of social media do this. Why child did that? With all of that, we tend to then push it down to our children rather than an understanding that this is one human being right in front of me.
And what's our goal? Our goal is over time, it's a long time. This is the beginning of it with a young child. I want to raise a decent human being. But I feel like that's really the work I do. That's the work you do, right? I'm like, how do you raise a decent human being? It takes a long time. And it takes a lot of understanding their world.
And so in many ways we have to flip it. It's not, she should know better, or he's doing this to upset me. Cause that's what manipulation would be thinking that your child had some kind of a most evil mis enrollment, they're just trying to get me, but it's to flip it and say, he's trying to figure out the world.
He's trying to figure out his sense of power, his sense of agency. So when you go back to your child and you say something like, I see you're upset, I get it. You're not going to like this, but we got to get your shoes on to get out the door. It's like instant empathy, right? I'm telling you that I know you're going to be upset about what's coming next says.
I see you, I hear you. And at the same time, it says, we got to get you to school, I've got to get to work, I've got to get to wherever I'm going. So you can both have that limit, but be really understanding. You say, I'm going to put your shoes on today, even when you know your child doesn't. is perfectly capable at other times of doing it.
[00:17:49] Hunter: Yeah. Let it go. When your child's you put my pants on today, even though they've done it, 20 times already, you're like it's not the end of the world.
[00:17:57] Dr. Tovah Klein: It's the message of today I feel like I need a little bit more. And you just go yeah, I'm going to give it to you. Oh, you need me to put your pants on today, of course.
Today I'll do it. And you put their pants on, and you don't have to battle, you know that term, pick your battles carefully. You really have to think do I care if I'm the one who puts their pants on? Do I care if she wears the yellow shirt today? What can I let go of, because the big things do matter, and you are going to hold my hand crossing the street, and you do have to sit in a car seat, or booster in the car.
There are things that do matter, and there's other things you can let go of.
[00:18:34] Hunter: I think I had a hard time with that, because there were so many power struggles in my own family, that it felt like I was alone. I remember feeling like with some of those things like that I'm losing or I'm losing face or I'm not you know, it was like a win lose thing where I felt like I was losing if I just said, okay, I'll put on your pants today where I have this incredible stubborn streak and, was really taught by my upbringing to the win the battle is the most important thing and it's incredibly hard To move from that to being, to to letting the, that little stuff go, even though mentally you're like, I want to let the little stuff go, I want to let the little stuff go, it can be so hard.
[00:19:20] Dr. Tovah Klein: Yeah, look, you bring up such an important point, which is this self awareness. And in my new book, Raising Resilience, I have this little piece what I call the you factor, Y O U. And reflective questions, because about who am I, like what am I bringing to this, what upsets me in this? How was I treated as a child?
Just like you're saying, because we are human. We come to this. Parenting mode. It's a relationship. So we're in relationship with our children, and that relationship is two separate people, or eventually the infant is almost part of you, but as the child grows out in the world, it's two distinct people who are also together.
And it's in that relationship that all of our feelings and all of our background comes out. And so the more aware of it, a parent can be anybody listening. And I always say, Self awareness is a huge step because sometimes parents will say I'm aware that it's this dynamic from my childhood but awareness hasn't changed.
No, not yet. But first you have to become aware. And that's a huge step. And then you say to yourself, okay, so what am I going to say to myself in those moments? She's just a little girl. She's not trying to beat me at anything. She needs her say. She's just a little girl. Like something in your head that goes, Exhale, I've got this.
[00:20:43] Hunter: Yeah. Yeah to let go a little. Yeah, when my daughters were little that was when Frozen came out and I was like, oh, no. No, I mean I remember battling the jacket battle at wintertime and Insisting, and just you can't go out until you, and why did I not, I look back at it now as an older parent and think, why did I not just say, okay, I'm just going to grab this jacket in case you need it.
Like it was a whole big thing and it didn't have to be. And I think that I would love for my listeners to be able to learn from my mistakes.
[00:21:16] Dr. Tovah Klein: Yeah, just all of those mistakes that we all make. I'm just thinking of the same a snowsuit that I was just insistent my, one of my children wear because it was Bitter cold that day and I could not let go of it.
Wait, you are not gonna rain. The child feels terrible. And when you say to your child, alright, you're not cold. Think of it. We're getting dressed inside. We're all warm in some night. They may not like the feeling of all those layers inside, and we're saying to them it's cold, and they live, young children live in the moment.
Right now, I'm not cold. And that idea of you might be cold later, your hands might be cold later, that's not even in their realm of thinking. But when you take the coat, and they turn to you at some point crying, If they say I'm cold and you say have your coat, that's the message of I'm here to take care of you.
That's actually where we build their trust. Mommy knew. Mommy knew.
[00:22:11] Hunter: Yeah. That sense of safety. I'm taken care of. I'm seen. I'm heard. My needs are met. That's so beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's what gives us, all of those things. Then we have to hold those boundaries with toddlers, right?
Like we wanna. create those connections, but then we have to hold boundaries. You have a great example in your new book about holding boundaries. You talk about hold, pulling your screaming four year old across major intersections because they didn't want to hold your hand. Tell us about that.
Yeah. And how you handled it at the time.
[00:22:41] Dr. Tovah Klein: Yeah, it's, again, this is the part of as a parent, what is it that stops you from upsetting your child? So one of my children went through a long phase, it wasn't just a phase, it was a long time, wanting to do everything by himself, including Crossing major intersections in New York City.
And I was like, that's a no brainer to me. You have to hold my hand across any street, really, in a city. And he would, be happy go lucky. We'd get to the corner. I'd go to take his hand. He'd start screaming. And I was like, literally, you have to drag him across the street. He wouldn't let me carry him.
And he'd be screaming and I'd worry that I was going to be arrested. And we'd get to the other side, let go of his hand, like on the other side, safety. And he'd be fine. And if I said something like, today you'll be able to do that without screaming, he'd go, no. If you think about it, that's a disturbing, stupid thing.
It's a spitting image. I'm really sorry, I have to say personality wise. I was like, okay, I get it. It was probably the same way. But the point is I had a real limit thing, which was safety. It wasn't like to negotiate. We, I wasn't explain to it every single time we go to Street Corny Uncle on in New York City, but we did it.
And he would get to the other side and he'd be fine. It was about power. We wanted the power and you know what? I didn't care what he wore, what he wear, that particular shirt, or we had to, get it out our laundry fine. You crossing the street or having to be buckled in the car, which he hated.
He didn't like being. Constrained in any way. So I had to figure out a way to see Willingham's to be constrained, and I'll just have to deal with the screaming. How did you deal with the screaming? Just as I was saying, I think as a parent, it's also my second, it's easier. It's easier the second time around, or the third time around, I think for parents, I wasn't sure they're upset with us, but we're basically upset. And there's people looking at you, which they're not. Even at home, we don't like it. A lot of children are allowed to say all the time I just love you. Mom and Dad, you're so cruel. That's not how it works. It's back and forth.
Sometimes they're happy, sometimes they're not happy with you. When you say to your children it's bedtime and they don't want to go to sleep, they're going to be upset. And those are actually the moments that we build such strength in our relationship with them. And then there's them, which says, I've got this.
Like, how many of the parents have this? And I do remind myself, he can be upset, but this limit is not being changed. And then really think through which limits more. I think you have to always go back to doesn't really know how, like you're saying, if she wears the winter coat. And if you ask yourself enough times, you'll probably say, no, because if she's not cold, I can carry it.
[00:25:33] Hunter: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that as much as I hate war metaphors, pick your battles is a really important one for parenting. Yeah.
[00:25:42] Dr. Tovah Klein: Yeah.
[00:25:43] Hunter: You believe that parents are fundamental in acting as emotional buffers and mediators. What does that mean?
[00:25:50] Dr. Tovah Klein: Yeah. There's a lot of literature on stress and the stress mechanisms in the brain.
I would say like stress and emotional arousal is the head and the heart, right? It's the whole person, but where is it going on? It's going on first in the brain with children, feel stress, get stressed, and they're young. It's the parents that help them through it. So if you go back a little bit and you think of the infant, in your arms and arms, but you take care of their needs, food, comfort, changing them, whatever it is we try to figure out.
Some babies are harder to figure out than others. As they get older, you're doing the same thing, but stepping back a bit. So all those times that we say to our child Oh, that is frustrating. I get it. That's frustrating. We're helping them manage these negative emotions without taking them away. And each time we do that, we're actually, it's like a, almost like a training module.
The brain goes, oh, stress, arousal, okay, somebody's helping me handle it and bring it back down. Stress arousal, it's a back and forth mechanism and it takes a lot of practice. And what we hope for is that our children don't get overly stressed, but some stress is actually healthy. And that's borne out in the neuroscience and in the developmental literature.
So what's the buffer? The buffer is the parent saying, I'm here for you, even when it's hard. I know you really don't want to go to school today, I put a little note in your backpack and if you miss me, that little note is there, says, you're not going to this and you will be upset and there's stress.
I'm also here with you. Even when I'm not physically here with you. And it's that buffering between stress and child that helps mediate it, so that they can learn to handle the stress over time. Which then prepares them. When you're doing this every day, by the way, Oh, you really wanted Cheerios and we're out of Cheerios.
Your friend wouldn't play with you at school today. As children get older, all the disappointments, the teacher they don't like, the, calculus tests that turned out to be different than they felt like. When they come home at any age and we're there to comfort them, that's a buffer. Every day, you're just automatically doing it.
Every parent listening, you're doing it, I promise you, every single day. What we're doing is preparing them for when the bad
We don't know what they're going to be, but I think every parent, and I'm like, I'm pretty convinced with every parent wants a child who can handle life. no matter what life gives them. Yeah. Hopefully most of it is good, but some of it's going to be not so good and some of it's going to be bad. That's the reality of life and living.
[00:28:41] Hunter: Yeah. And then they have this. They have a pattern of what happens when things are bad. I have people in my life I can turn to. I can, I can weather this. I can move through this. Yeah. It may be uncomfortable, but I can move through this. I love that. Yeah. We're, that our relationship, our attuned kind of healthy relationship is a buffer.
I, yeah. And I think it's also a buffer for when we have to cause the stress. Yeah. If we have to hold the boundary, things like that. I definitely remember at certain times, my daughters are 17 and 14 now, but saying having a kid be mad at me when she went to bed and saying, Hey, honey, I know you're mad at me, but I'm here for you.
I love you. I'm going to go to bed, whatever, not, maybe I didn't get the good night hug that night. Cause you're mad. Yeah. It was like, but I'm still here for you even though you're mad at me. That's the key.
[00:29:33] Dr. Tovah Klein: That's it. It's simple, but here's the foundation that every child needs to live in the world.
No matter how I feel, no matter how good or bad things are, no matter what I say about my parents, I need to know that they still love me. And it doesn't leave that. Okay, you can, stay up for three more hours. What it means is, yeah, you got to go to sleep and even when you're mad at me, I still love you and I'll still see you in the morning.
And then when you see them in the morning and you make them breakfast, you're back to your like, more harmony. And all of that is like little energy. Asking for the child Oh, these feelings might be okay because that adult who I need so badly can handle them. It's also how they learn about things like anger.
I have anger. My parent, mommy or daddy gets angry. And then we come back together. That's the big lesson that gets absorbed in their entire body oh, it's okay to get mad because that doesn't mean the relationship is over.
[00:30:44] Hunter: Yeah, it's not. It's that coming back together, that repair, that's the most important thing.
And you talk about Kids need their parental presence. I'm going to veer from toddlers a little bit, but at all the ages three and 15 and 20, thinking about, I know you're an expert in toddlers, but thinking about this idea of like kids and teenagers, I think I've, that's something I've realized, that sometimes we think as parents oh, my basically my job is done by the time they get to high school, but actually there's these you know they have your presence my presence. Yeah on this house I feel super, super lucky and grateful that I, the work I do allows me to be here in this house because I, even while I'm recording this podcast, I can look out this giant window and they're like, Bye!
As Maggie drives off to her tutoring or whatever, and it seems really important. That for them to have that kind of presence there at this point. And you're saying that's so too?
[00:31:44] Dr. Tovah Klein: Absolutely. And one of the questions that people ask me is like, how, at what point did you start working with families with children earlier?
Part of it, it was even our careers. We've been doing this for almost three decades, or more than three decades, is that, on the one hand, on a day to day basis, I'm with toddlers and parents and young children, but then my work, so with parents outside of my center and outside of Barnard, I am a college professor, so I've always had these two inches young adults, which I love.
right? Because it's, there's so many similarities to the early years and then this kind of identity in 18, 19, 20. The most time I spent in the field, the more I asked questions about what's going on, what's the basis? If I'm interested in studying and helping people get to a strong foundation, that is a strong foundation for what?
And then my work became more and more over time Elementary school age, middle school, high school, because the foundation is something that you want them to carry through. And then I would see the continuity. So then my own children were growing up and I would say, wow, there's this continuity.
That child always got upset about something like this, and he still does, but takes a slightly different presence on my part to be there for them. Just like you're saying, rude to a teenager is enough. That may not be enough for a four year old. But what's the commonality is, Mommy's here.
[00:33:21] Hunter: Yeah.
[00:33:22] Dr. Tovah Klein: So it's a question of how do you keep stepping back? What kind of support do you need as a parent in that stepping back? But they need us through the whole thing. Yeah, they could think about, how you called your parents when you got your first apartment or first big job or, any of these things in adulthood, you might have called your parent or sent them a note or an email, right?
That's still that checking in. I want to share this with you.
[00:33:49] Hunter: Yeah. And you want that. You want to be there for that. All that.
Stay tuned for more Mindful Parenting podcasts right after this break.
[00:35:40] Hunter: Tova, would you mind if we go back to early childhood, go back to those younger years, and I give you some sort of rapid fire questions about the most difficult toddler parent situations.
What are some of the best ways for, I'm going to ask maybe about both about bedtime and sibling fighting. Okay. Yeah. So one of the biggest things parents have so much trouble with is bedtime. Parents. want to be able to have their kids go to bed and stay in a room while they can have maybe this one precious hour with each other.
before they go to bed. And kids are like, parents stay with me, don't go. What can parents do to navigate that kind of thing skillfully?
[00:36:26] Dr. Tovah Klein: Yeah. So bedtime, going to sleep is separation. Think if you switch your focus a little bit to any parent who's listening with a young, and even these elementary age children, probably I think because of the pandemic, but you could have sleep issues at any age, but certainly in the toddler years.
It's separation for your child, right? For us, it's done with the day. It's tired. You go to sleep. I get time to myself or time with a partner. For the child, it's yet another goodbye. So when you think of it that way, sometimes you handle it differently. Everybody's heard you need a bedtime routine.
Why? Because it keeps saying to the child every night, here's what we do. Here's how we wind down. Here's the book. The lights are low. There might be a white noise machine or, lullaby music or something. The cue is literally to their system. This is getting closer to bedtime. So it's actually a calming.
Now for some children, it's upsetting. Oh, the music's on, or the bath is happening. For the parents, It's the ability to say, sleep is more important than anything I could possibly give my child. And I honestly believe that. I think the data bears that out, but you also know that anecdotally, right?
When we're tired, we're not at our best. When our child is sleep deprived, they can't handle all of the, that they're asked to do in a day, let alone in the morning. Absolutely. The routine matters, the the sameness to some extent matters, and then for the parent, it's doing that work on self.
Why is it so hard for me to say, it's okay if you cry, I'm going to still see you in the morning? Because if it's separation, which it is, then the reunion is the morning. I'm going to see you in the morning. I always do. And I'll make you breakfast. You can give children something to sleep with. Some children like to sleep with a t shirt of a parent.
I often suggest a photo of the family. And then saying to the child, this is with you all night, and I always see you in the morning, even if you need to cry right now. It's almost giving them permission for the release. And then saying goodnight. But when the child feels like, I really don't want to say goodnight, why would they want to, for that child who doesn't want to?
And then the parent hesitates, it actually makes children feel less safe. Comfortable or Less Secure. Oh, Mommy can't handle this, Daddy's not handling this. Now what do I do? But when we say to them, I got this, you need sleep, I need sleep, I'll see you tomorrow, they feel calmer.
[00:39:06] Hunter: Okay, so get in your own head and get, understand that this is the best way, thing for your kid.
[00:39:14] Dr. Tovah Klein: Yes. And Ask yourself, what were my experiences as a child? So often, I work privately with parents, I work in parent groups, and so often when I ask that question for a parent who's really struggling with bedtime, they have some very vivid story about either being forced to go to sleep, feeling like their parents weren't patient enough, or Just feeling not responded to as a child.
Not enough. It doesn't mean that the parents were horrible people, but my parents weren't there for me. Then it's very hard to think that saying to your child, it's okay if you crying and I still see you in the morning. is doable, but children look to us to say, I've got this. I, we're good. You're going to sleep.
I'll see you tomorrow. They respond to that.
[00:39:59] Hunter: Okay. That's a lovely, succinct way of putting that. Okay. What about when they're fighting with their siblings? How should we respond? Should we be going in and breaking it up? Should we not be growing in and breaking it up? What should we get sibling fighting?
[00:40:13] Dr. Tovah Klein: This is probably the most common questions, I'm sure you know that too that I get when I'm working with parents, because, and again, we bring ourselves to this, What's my history? If you're an only child and you have children who are screaming at each other, it's scary.
[00:40:28] Hunter: Yeah.
[00:40:28] Dr. Tovah Klein: If you have siblings, you have to ask yourself, did I fight with them?
What I find is that people who had really loud, and I was gonna have to say lowercase h, not, but I love you, I hate you, I love you, I don't love you, I want to be with you, I don't want to be with you. If people tend to remember that from their own childhood, they tend to also be close to their siblings as adults.
Even if they say something like, we're so different, we don't have a lot in common, but how we have each other's back. I call my sister, I call my brother, when we get together, That kind of, but siblings are being asked to share the most precious thing in their life called parents.
Whether you're a single parent, whether there's two of you, and it's a little bizarre, right? I need mommy and now I've got to compete with you on this one. And so you tend to hear from your, about your children, if you have a caregiver, right? I joined in a very young, we are a caregiver, and I would come home and she'd say they'd be, they're fine until you get here.
Oh. So I had a son at the listen, you can't say that when I walk in after a long day and then I don't want to be with that. Like, where's, like, when the parent is there, they can be their full self. Good, bad, happy. Mad, they can be everything. That's the person they trust the most. When they're with grandparents, they tend to be in better behavior no matter how close they are.
Babysitters, they tend to be, you'll hear those reports like, oh my god, she's so great at school and at home. So what are you to do? I always see this as The only reason any of us give our child a sibling, let alone another sibling or another one, is that we want them to have each other,
And we want that for life. So I really see it as like the children in relationship on one side, the parents in relationship on another side, meaning the children have to have their own relationship. And you allow that by saying to them, you've got each other for life. Sometimes it's fun, right? Sometimes it's not. Because we have to help them address the downside. It's really not fun sometimes. I get it. That's your sister. That's your brother. If you do that, or if you have a baby, and you say to the older one, everyone's oh, she's so sweet, or he's so kind, but they're mulling over, I don't like that baby, but they're hugging, and everyone's oh, you're so sweet, you're so sweet, you're so sweet.
When you say to the child, You don't have to love that baby all the time, she does cry a lot. Or, I sure have to spend a lot of time with that baby, don't I? It says to the child these feelings are okay. And then what do you do when they're fighting? This is again where you have to know yourself. What's your limit?
You don't have a lot of time. Is it okay if they hit? Is it okay if they say mean things? Is it okay? I say that's personal, right? I think siblings who are close are capable of saying the meanest things to each other because it's part of their relationship. And I can remember times saying to my boys who are so close, but I would say to them sometimes, I find what you said to your brother.
And they say, yeah, mom, you tell us all the time we're siblings. That's why we said it. Because in the heat of the moment. They're free as they could be. And I think, holy smokes did he really just yell that nasty thing? And then five minutes later, they'd be playing together or doing something collaboratively.
So if you can stay out of it as much as possible and give your children the message, that's your brother, that's your sister, you can figure this out. Or you can handle this. You can handle this as really neutral, right? Handling it might be saying, I don't want to be with you and going, in another realm.
Handling it might be, throwing their sibling's toy and saying, you're dumb or whatever it is that's on their mind. It can be far worse than maybe coming to some reasonable or they think reasonable decision. Sometimes it doesn't seem reasonable to us, but it does to them. But as a parent, you can also have a limit.
Where you go and you say enough, it's enough. The problem with the intervention is we have to do it neutrally. And we tend to go in and blame one child or the other. And every parent sitting is going to say Oh, I blame the youngest. I blame the sort of feistiest who's been labeled the troublemaker.
You want to break it up because we all have our limits. It's to go in and say, it's enough. This isn't working. Everybody take a break. And usually when you do then they'll go running back to each other. That's it. As long as you're seeing loving and active joyful moments, sometimes.
[00:45:07] Hunter: All right. I love that.
You, you heard it here, dear listener, from Dr. Tovah Klein of Barnard College, Center for Toddler Development. Tovah, this has been such a pleasure to talk to you and I can really see the joy in your face as I think about these little crazy creatures. Thank you. Is there anything that we missed that you might want to share with the listener?
And before you answer that I just want to Mention Tovah's new book is Raising Resilience, How to Help Our Children Thrive in Times of Uncertainty. It's great. I recommend it. Get it anywhere books are sold. Yeah.
[00:45:48] Dr. Tovah Klein: We could probably talk all day about this topic, but I think for parents to know is that children are forgiving, and in a loving relationship that's basically loving, there's going to be mishaps.
There's going to be really big mishaps. There's going to be bad things that happen in their lives. Children want to know that they can come back to you. And that has to come from us. That's a big premise of my book, Raising Resilience and Unpacking. What does that mean to be in relationship with a child?
and raise them to be these decent human beings to handle life, is that there's gonna be a lot of mishaps. It's so far from perfection. And there's a lot of messaging today of do it right. And there's not one way to love a child. There are many ways to love a child. As long as you can accept that it's going to be an up and down road.
[00:46:41] Hunter: I think that's such an important thing to remember. The up and the down is something I am taking away from the development. The up and down. It's gotta be the up and down. And we're here for you through the ups and downs. So Dr. Tova Klein's new book, Raising Resilience. Tova, thank you so much for coming on the Mindful Parenting podcast and sharing your time and your expertise and your joy with us.
It's really been a pleasure.
[00:47:07] Dr. Tovah Klein: Thank you. It's really been a pleasure to be here too.
[00:47:14] Hunter: I hope you liked this episode. I think I love talking to Tova and she was so helpful. Of course. Oh my goodness. Wow. Really great episode. I hope if you got something out of it, definitely text it to somebody who could use it today. And if you want more episodes like this, I invite you to listen to episode number 471, Holding Boundaries with Toddlers with Janet Lansbury.
And episode 427, which is an honor coaching episode, How to Hold Boundaries with a Toddler. There's so much in this Mindful Parenting Podcast back catalog because we've, I've been doing this podcast for such a long time and podcast years, 10 years. Isn't that crazy? But yeah, so actually if you turn a friend onto the Mindful Parenting Podcast, or maybe you yourself want to do this, but if you turn a friend onto the podcast and they're like, Oh my God, it's overwhelming.
There's too many episodes. You can send them to MindfulMamaMentor.com/quiz. That's MindfulMamaMentor.com/quiz and you answer a few easy questions and get a unique to you five episode playlist. of the podcast to help you become less stressed and more joyful. So you're going to find episodes and these playlists on how to discipline without punishment, helping kids calm down, how to talk to littles, and overcoming overwhelm.
So it's just a quiz away. MindfulMamaMentor.com/quiz. All right. That's all I've got for you today. Next week, next Tuesday, we are going to be During a really powerful episode, I talked to Rose Hackman on emotional labor. This was really eye opening episode. I have been thinking about this since the day we've recorded it.
It's really it'll really make you think about everything completely differently. Don't forget to tune in, subscribe, and download Emotional Labor. You'll love it. And I hope this has all helped you. I hope this will help you become a better person. Parent, better person, and accept and love yourself more, hopefully.
I know that's so cheesy to say, but I really do believe it and want it for you. Yeah, I will talk to you real soon, my friend. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Namaste.
[00:49:30] Mindful Mama Member: I'd say definitely do it. It's really helpful. It will change your relationship with your kids for the better. It will help you communicate better. And just, I'd say communicate better as a person, as a wife, as a spouse. It's been really a positive influence in our lives. So definitely do it. I'd say definitely do it.
It's so worth it. The money really is inconsequential when you get so much benefit from being a better parent to your children and feeling like you're connecting more with them and not. If you're feeling like you're yelling all the time, or you're like, why isn't this working? I would say definitely do it.
It's so worth it. It'll change you. No matter what age someone's child is, it's a great opportunity for personal growth, and it's a great investment in someone's family. I'm very thankful I have this. You can continue in your old habits that aren't working, or you can learn some new tools and gain some perspective to shift everything in your parenting.
[00:50:33] Hunter: Are you frustrated by parenting? Do you listen to the experts and try all the tips and strategies, but you're just not seeing the results that you want? Or are you lost as to where to start? Does it all seem so overwhelming with too much to learn? Are you yearning for community people who get it, who also don't want to threaten and punish to create cooperation?
Hi, I'm Hunter Clarke-Fields, and if you answered yes to any of these questions, I want you to seriously consider the Mindful Parenting membership. You will be joining hundreds of members who have discovered the path of mindful parenting and now have confidence and clarity in their parenting. This isn't just another parenting class.
This is an opportunity to really discover your unique, lasting relationship, not only with your children, but with yourself. It will translate into lasting, connected relationships, not only with your children, but your partner too. Let me change your life. Go to mindfulparentingcourse.com to add your name to the waitlist, so you will be the first to be notified when I open the membership for a month.
I look forward to seeing you on the inside. MindfulParentingCourse.com
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