When Joey Odom missed his son’s first soccer goal because he was looking at his phone, he had a realization: his phone was getting in the way of his best intentions as a dad and husband. Since then, he has been on a journey to change his relationship with his phone so that he can change his most important relationships in life.
516: What to do About Phones; Kids Health Series #4
Joey Odom
We’re now 17 years into a life with smartphones and it has had profound impacts on kids and parents. What are some of those effects and how can we create some boundaries around phones to protect mental health?
Hunter talks about our relationship with phones and practical ways to address technology with Joey Odom.
Ep 517- Joey Odom
Read the Transcript 🡮
*This is an auto-generated transcript*
[00:00:00] Joey Odom: I realized that the relationship that I had with this bone that's always been with me was getting directly in the way of my most important relationships in life.
[00:00:15] Hunter: You're listening to the Mindful Parenting Podcast, episode number 517. Today is the last in our Kids’ Health series. We're talking about what to do about phones with Joey Odom.
Welcome to the Mindful Parenting podcast. Here, it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. In Mindful Parenting, we know that you cannot give what you do not have. And when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clarke-fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course and teacher training, and I'm the author of the international bestseller “Raising Good Humans Every Day”, and the “Raising Good Humans Guided Journal”. Hello and welcome! I am so glad you're here.
If you're new, welcome to you. We have talked about phones in many different ways here at the Mindful Parenting Podcast, but today is a special one, so I'm so glad you're here. In just a moment, I am going to be talking to Joey Odom, and he talks about when he first, he missed his son's first soccer goal because he's looking at his phone. He had a realization that his phone was getting in the way of his best intentions as dad and husband. He has been on a journey to change his relationship with the phone, and we are going to talk about that. And, we're 17 years now into life with smartphones, and it has profound impacts on kids, has profound impacts on us as parents. What are some of those effects, and how can we create some boundaries around phones to protect mental health? We're going to talk all about our relationship with phones and practical ways to address them. This technology with Joey Odom. And before we dive in, I want to let you know that you can bring me to your workplace or school as a speaker.
In the last few years, I've done talks all around the world for groups, and we've had so much fun. I'm known for offering evidence-based learning in a way that's clear, realistic, humorous, and immediately helpful. So if you want to bring me to your school or to your company, go to MindfulMamaMentor.com/speaking to book your dates.
And now, join me at the table as I talk to Joey Odom.
[00:03:21] Hunter: So welcome to the Mindful Parenting podcast, Joey. I'm so glad you could be here.
[00:03:24] Joey Odom: Hanser, it's great to see you. Thank you so much for having me.
[00:03:27] Hunter: And I'm looking forward to talking to you about screen time. Oh my gosh, we have talked about screen time in so many different ways for the years, but I'm really looking forward to it again.
I feel like there's always new things to say about it, and it's just interesting. But before we get into screen time, I think because we're talking about parenting and generational patterns, I'd like to dive into, what, what were you raised like and what was your childhood like?
[00:03:53] Joey Odom: The two, I was raised by the two most wonderful parents in the world who are still with us.
I grew up in Oklahoma, Tulsa, Oklahoma, and my parents were, and are just terrific. Always there. My dad, interestingly, my dad's, when my dad was three years old, his father passed away in a car accident that my father was in as well, but he passed away. So he had years of not really having a father figure.
My grandmother remarried who I know is my grandfather. And so he had a great one there, but he had not the greatest childhood and somehow he turned out to be the most present, wonderful dad. It gets me a little choked up, even tried to put it into words, but. The most wonderful present father, always there to throw, throw the baseball with me and was always there for all of my games through some financial.
Turmoil. My mom is very. Emotionally intuitive. She's she was very good. I have two brothers and a sister. And so with my brothers, she was always good with all of us about helping us to put our emotions into words and identify those. And they're just, I can't, we can spend the whole episode talking about how great Phil and Jan Odom are.
And they they're just great. And they have carried that on into grandparenthood. I think they're probably in double digits. of of grandkids now with my siblings and me. So great support system. I feel like I was born on third base with how great my parents are.
[00:05:17] Hunter: That's amazing. That's pretty unusual.
I don't know how old you are, maybe if like me were raised in like the eighties or in the nineties, like it was a lot of there were all the like, There are all the ads like, Hey, it's 10 o'clock. Do you know where your kids are? Like, parents just didn't even know where the kids were or like, where it was.
So like a lot of just I, I remember, and not a lot of interest necessarily in parenting or talking about emotions. At all or anything like that? They were, they sounds like unicorns for that time.
[00:05:49] Joey Odom: I think they were really good. They'd be, they also had a really good balance of letting us kind of roam free too.
There was they were, we were structured. We had a lot of things we did. I would say my mom more than my dad even was a disciplinarian. And so she was, they were very good about structure and rules, but also it was. Jump on the bike and head out for a few hours, which seems wild to what I think back on it, but they were really good about that as well.
So we spent a bunch of outside outdoors time. My mom would take us on what she would call our nature walks. So we'd go on our nature walks. So we get outside a bunch. And I do think, and it's funny even talking about and hearing you say that, cause you see so much of this. It does. It, my mom, in a lot of ways, my parents were both really of their time and a little bit of throwbacks all at once,
[00:06:35] Hunter: yeah, I guess you probably know now how fortunate you are. Now I think about, yeah, I think about my childhood and yeah, I'm so grateful. Like I was roaming around on my bike for hours and hours. I remember one time coming back when I was like 10 and mom was like, You went to CVS, which is two miles away or something, it's yeah, I wanted the big half pound bag of M& M's.
[00:06:57] Joey Odom: That's where you go, Mom, what do you think?
[00:06:59] Hunter: That's where you have to go to get that. But also you've, and I'm sure because there's so much trauma and things that are very, were very normal, especially like then, a lot of Spanking and yeah. And corporal punishment and things like that was very much the norm then.
[00:07:16] Hunter: And certainly not a lot of emotional intelligence was happening with parents at that time, I think.
[00:07:24] Joey Odom: No, you're totally right. It just for context, it's, yeah. I'm a few days away from 44, so I was born in eighties, so grew up in the eighties and nineties, so Yeah, you're right in that vintage.
[00:07:34] Hunter: Of course our parents didn't have to deal with screen time, right? I think I watched so many so many reruns of, I feel like I've watched a lot of TV because I was a latchkey kid I watched like a lot of Three's Company reruns and like Mr. Ed.
[00:07:50] Joey Odom: We watched a lot of, yeah, and a bunch of Nick at Night, sure, yeah.
[00:07:53] Hunter: Yeah, all the Nick at Night shit. I can still sing the Mr. Ed song, it's really crazy.
[00:08:00] Joey Odom: You could do a killer duet and just take over the internet right now.
[00:08:05] Hunter: Yeah, I mean I felt like I watched so much TV, but it's always it was at the mercy of whatever was on the TV. Yeah. There were Saturday morning cartoons and things like that.
And It was definitely an object in a room that you had to be in that room to be with and, I definitely wanted to go outside at different times and, of course, it's all changed so, so drastically. So I know you have a story about this and I'd love for you to share your story about what made you look deeper into screen time and its effects on kids and their families.
[00:08:37] Joey Odom: Yeah, for sure. And to harken back real quick to what you said in the beginning, This is a, we talk about this all the time, the screen time. We really do. And then for people may be listening where it's just Oh gosh, someone else who's going to, hit me between the eyes and say, I need to get rid of my smartphone.
I promise that's not coming. So if the for anybody listening, you can lower the defenses in all of this. And as you'll soon learn, this is something that I've struggled with mightily in my life as a parent. And it starts really, Hunter, it starts back about 11 years ago, my son, Harrison, who is now 16 years old, who is and was just the sweetest kid and the best kid, such a great heart, high emotional intelligence as well, just a very good kid.
And he was playing his first soccer season at five years old. And if anybody has kids who have played in youth sports, particularly soccer, you probably know that the kids who really succeed, really thrive in soccer are the kids who appear that they've just gotten out of like a work release program or are parolees.
Like these are aggressive kids, right? These are aggressive kids who are scoring the goals. And Harrison was just not, he was just not one of those kids. And We went out every Saturday, just like we did the Saturdays before, lugging the lawn chairs to sit for another hour and watch another soccer game.
And Harrison had not scored a goal this whole season. So this particular Saturday afternoon, something really, truly extraordinary happened. And it was about midway through the game. And this picture comes back to me almost like a movie scene. It's got, all the slow motion and it's got the dramatic music all in my mind as Harrison rears back his leg.
And he kicks the soccer ball and it glides over the grass and it glides back into the back of the net for Harrison's very first soccer goal. And the crowd went wild. These sweet parents knew that everybody on the team had scored a goal except for Harrison's. They knew the moment this was and his coach runs out on the field and he lifts Harrison up.
And there was this little moment Hunter, right in between when the ball hit the back of the net and when Harrison's coach picked him up, when he did what five year old boys do. grass He turned to the sidelines to lock eyes with me, to see all the pride on my face and the smile on my face and to share this moment from afar.
And it was really, truly magical, except for the fact that I missed every single bit of what I just described to you. At that moment, when my sweet little boy turned to the sidelines, all he saw was the top of my head, because I was looking down at my phone and it's interesting, people have asked me, okay what were you working on?
And the answer is, I have no idea. And it could have been work. It could have been the most important work email I've ever gotten. It could have been also. It could have been an Instagram video. It could have been something silly. Who knows what it was? I don't know, but I do know at that moment, I missed it.
Now, Harrison claims, luckily, I don't think I'm going to have a, a psychology bill to send some to pay one day, because Harrison says he doesn't remember this moment, but I do, and it is burned in my mind. And what's really burned in my mind is the exclamation point there is this, is that I realized that the relationship that I had with this phone that's always been with me was getting directly in the way of my most important relationships in life.
Because you think about it, Hunter, think about what we got. You spent all your, your childhood and then, your adolescent years thinking, Oh, I'm going to marry somebody. Who is that person I'm going to marry? So you think about your future family from a very young age. Yeah. And then you get married and you think, Oh, what if we could have kids someday?
And we know the nightmare stories of how hard fertility is sometimes of getting pregnant and then actually making it through a pregnancy. And then actually having, a child who's healthy and all of these things that have to line up for this to happen, we spend so much time and energy and even finances on this.
And then it was just, something was just wrong. What am I doing? Subverting all of these things that I've wanted in my life. Because this little rectangle that sits in my pocket. So I knew at that moment, something had to change. Something was wrong and it just didn't feel right. And I had hoped, and I hoped at that moment that something could be different.
[00:13:14] Hunter: I can't imagine, I can't imagine, no, I very much can't imagine the guilt that you feel from, say, being like, okay, oh, here I was, totally engrossed. And whatever this is, and this thing happened and my kid looked at me and my kid needed me and these are the moments you've been waiting for, like you, you suffer through the intense moments, the difficult feelings, the discomforts, the challenges, the poop, all of that.
[00:13:40] Joey Odom: Literally and figuratively, yes.
[00:13:45] Hunter: And then boom, it was gone because of your device, yeah, I mean I think probably we can all. Relate to like, at least having one of those moments where you're, where it pulls you away so completely and you feel really guilty about it.
[00:14:00] Joey Odom: Yeah. Yeah. I just an addendum on that.
And it's probably for anybody listening, if you've felt that then you're in good company. We're we've all experienced it. And the good thing is I don't, I haven't allowed that felt bad in the moment. I've really tried to be careful about telling that story with shame. I've been really careful about receiving that story with shame or replaying that story with shame.
You know what I mean? Because it's too easy to do. That's our default setting is to beat ourselves up but and that rarely goes somewhere good. So it's almost like what I've really tried to do with that story and other stories. That's one of a lot of stories of me falling on my face, but.
We do have to know, I think I recognized even then, even more so now with the benefit of time, is that our kids are very resilient, that the repair in a relationship is one of the most important things you can do, and the prerequisite to that is failure, so if I fail, I'm halfway there, so that's not bad.
I try to not receive that with shame, and we can, we will go into this more as we talk. For parents who have also experienced moments like that, I want to encourage you to flee the shame, and flee the guilt, and recognize maybe the conviction. But that conviction doesn't result in a life sentence.
That conviction results in a warning for you of saying, Hey, now you have an opportunity, now you're smarter, now you have an opportunity to do it better the next time.
[00:15:14] Hunter: Yeah. And if we look at the difference between guilt and shame, like that, Brene Brown talks about guilt, shame is, I am bad.
Guilt is I did something bad. Guilt is actually a very positive pro social emotion, because for you, you felt this guilt. Yeah. Like I did something and it wasn't in alignment with who I am. And that's a huge difference from shame. And it was a driving force for you to take action. I imagine from here, what did you do from that point?
[00:15:43] Joey Odom: Thank you for making that distinction. I love that distinction. It's so true. And if we can live, live apart from that shame and recognize when we have done something wrong. I here would be a great end of that story. Hunter, the great end of that story would be, I was perfect with my phone every day after that, except it's not true, right?
It's just not. So I was in, at that time I was in, in a career in finance and commercial real estate, which was going great. And a couple of years later, I got a text from a friend named Heath and Heath said, Hey, I'm I got an idea that I want to sit down and talk with you about. And we had this conversation about the ways that he, and he had just gotten through selling a business and he said in the, he had, he recognized that his phone had pulled him away from his family for many years and work had pulled him away from his family and he said, Hey, I bet you we can solve this for our families and if we could solve it for our families, I wonder if we could solve it for some other families.
So we began down a path to help other families, specifically parents, get this right. I have this core belief, Hunter, that every good thing that we want in life, and this is going to maybe sound dramatic, that every good thing we want in life will be limited by our relationship with our phones. That's the ceiling.
That I could plan the best date night in the world with my wife. We could get dressed up, we could go to the best restaurant in town. But if I'm on my phone, that date night will be limited by how I relate to my phone then. That doesn't mean that it automatically creates a great date night. It doesn't automatically mean that I'm a great parent.
You think about us talking about our parents. Our parents didn't have to deal with phones, but they still had to be good parents. That was still hard. But the prerequisite, like the cost of entry to trying to do a good job is going to be our relationship with your phone. And so we began with that.
We said it's a relationship with our phone and we got to do something about that. And if it's okay, I'd love to talk about this, that term relationship and specifically as it relates to our phone. And it's a weird thing to say a relationship with the device. And we all say it, we all talk about relationships with phones, relationship with technology.
We don't take a step back and say, that's weird that we're talking about a relationship with an object. Humans here's what I thought. Humans don't have relationships with devices or with objects. That's not necessarily true. Adults don't usually have relationships with objects, but children do.
And you probably know this a lot better than I do. There's a term for that. These objects that children have relationships with, those are called transitional objects. Those are called comfort objects, right? These are good things for kids. These are teddy bears, and binkies, and blankies. And what happens, and you can speak on this a lot better than I can, I know, but When a child, when a parent is gone, a child clings to a transitional object, clings to a comfort object to give them a sense of security in the absence of their real security in the absence of their parents.
Now what's happened with phones. Oh, and what happens with that? A kid over time realizes that, Oh, I don't need this blankie. I don't need this teddy bear when mommy or daddy got are gone. Like I can do this on my own. So it's a helpful transition into independence and recognizing they can do it on their own.
But here we are as adults. Yeah. Being reverted back to childhood when it comes to our phones, because we're clinging to these devices. We're clinging to them. But here's the really interesting piece. We're clinging to them where a child clings to a transitional object in the absence of relationship, in the absence of the people that are most important to them.
We're clinging to this object in the presence of the people who are most important to us. In the presence of relationships, we're doing this at the dinner table around the people that we love. We're doing this in the middle of conversations. So we've been reverted back to this state of adolescence, the state of childhood, which the way with the way that we are relating to our phones.
Let me pause there. I didn't end again, knowing that you're knowing you're the expert here, but when it comes to transitional objects, this idea of us being reverted back to childhood by us clinging to this kind of comfort object, it's not even a transitional object. It's a comfort object in adulthood.
to me felt okay, that's something that's worth looking at and knowing that we are calling it a relationship as opposed to just using it as a tool is, I believe, one of the more insidious relationship, one of the more insidious things that we see when it comes to our relationship with technology.
[00:19:55] Hunter: Yeah. It's become so ingrained in every single piece of our lives. And so it, yeah, it is a relationship in that, it's a part of everything. It's recording. It's recording my video right now but yeah, I definitely see that it is a relationship, but this whole idea of that, that for me, that is really striking is thinking about this idea of Of what we're wanting, what our kids are wanting from us as far as like their attachment to us and what you're talking about how, there are, we're, there are, we are their attachment figure, that safety and security and what creates that attachment and that secure feeling, that safe feeling is the thing that kids crave most, which is the feeling of being seen and being heard.
You see me, you hear me, and that requires us to be present to be able to see and hear you. And you're right, like you're talking about how we've built up to this, right? Like we've built our lives to, we may have really wanted kids. We may have wanted this partnership. We may have wanted this family.
And then here we are. Because of, I think, the discomfort of just being human, the discomfort of being a human, that, in the human brain, in the general, difficulty it is to be present with the discomfort of emotions and things like that, We go to this relationship with this device to alleviate that when, and it's pulling, what you're saying is like it's really pulling us away from everything that is most important in our lives.
[00:21:33] Joey Odom: Yeah. It's, I, and I think Hunter one reason why we're struggling with, or there are a couple of reasons. There are many reasons. One reason I believe is that we're very early into the experiment that we had the ubiquity of technology. This is new. We, like you said, TVs were in one room and you had to be in that room to watch it.
The fact that these are with us all the time that's the real problem. And we're 17 years into the iPhone experiment, right? We're brand new. And that's where the B this is where I want people to be careful by beating themselves up too much. We're figuring this thing out, right?
We're figuring out what the heck this thing is. And so that, that's one big piece of it is that we have. It's just that, it's just that we're brand new to this and when it comes to our relationship with them I believe the defining characteristic of our relationship is the fact that they are with us all the time.
That is, and that's what's different about it than anything else. And so when you think about, and we call this the PID loop, P I D, is that It's because they're with us all the time. That's the defining characteristic of our relationship. And that's the area we need to break because things cascade from it.
So science tells us, the studies tell us that 91 percent of us have our phones with us 24 hours a day. 91 percent of us have our phones with us 24 hours a day. So they are constantly with us, which leads us to interact with them more. When they're with us, we will interact with them more. And many people will point to, Oh, we'll just silence your notifications and everything will be fine.
That kind of helps, but notifications and inbound notifications, that only accounts for about 11 percent of our usage. 89 percent of our usage is self initiated. We are the ones initiating our phones, and we only do that when they're with us. And then what happens after we interact with them, we become dependent on them, which makes them even harder to get rid of, and our dependence And again, this is not a demonization of it because there are some really good dependencies I have on my phone.
If my mom wanted to reach me right now from Oklahoma and I'm in Tennessee, she could do that. When my grandfather passed away a couple years ago, we FaceTimed when he was in his hospital room when he was in Arizona. And we were able to have this beautiful last moment. Before he, a few hours before he passed away, technology enabled that.
That was a great dependency, but we started getting into these false dependencies with our phone. And this, these are the ones that we believe are, we believe we're dependent, but we're actually not. So the best example I can think of is keeping on our phone, our phones by our bedside table at night.
We all know that we shouldn't have blue light. 30 minutes before bed, an hour before bed. We all know what happens when you deluge your brain with information right when you wake up. We all know sometimes, it's not good to check your phone in the middle of the night, yet a lot of us do when we wake up to go to the bathroom.
We check our phones, it's having a negative effect and we all know that. No one's arguing that piece of it. Yet, if you ask somebody, why do you keep your phone by your bed at night? Most of the answers would be, it's my alarm clock, right? So let's break that down. Is that a real dependency or are we talking about a false dependency there?
That's a false dependency on our phone. But when we're dependent on our phone, we believe, especially when we believe we're dependent on our phone, what do we do? We're then proximate to our phones more and more. So then we're proximate, then we interact with them, then we're more dependent, then we're more proximate.
So that PID loop continues. And so what we have to do, and it's going to sound overly simplistic, but I promise you it's true, is break that proximity for periods of time a day. That's it. I've yet to meet the person who could use their phone when it's not with them. I know you can come up with some exceptions.
That's just a good one liner, right? Like you can listen to a podcast when you're away from it. I get all that, but it is that, which is all this constant proximity isn't a problem. If it weren't having those detrimental effects on our relationships, I have clothes on, I would say, 24 hours a day for the most part, maybe, during a shower, I don't, but for the most part, our clothes are with us all the time.
That isn't interfering in my most important relationships and probably without it, it would probably really affect my most important relationships. So we need those. So it's not the fact that our phones are with us. It's the. It's what they're doing to us. And so this is where we have to start in this where I would encourage a listener, like you got to wade out into the gray here and it's not phones are good.
Phones are bad, right? And people want to look at things in very certain terms like that, but it's more that. Okay. I see some areas of my phone that are so additive to my life. I see some areas of my phone that probably aren't additive to my life. I see some areas of my phone that are additive, my additive to my life, but maybe not in the middle of a conversation with my daughter.
Right? Email's great on my phone, but when it interferes with something else. So we have to wait out in the gray and look at this relationship and I believe, look at how we can. How can, how we can really intersect that, intercept the constant proximity our phones have to us, which by the way, I just talked for two minutes and said the most obvious thing in the world.
Be away from your phone, right? That's obvious. We understand, but the problem is this is hard and I think it's helpful. I think another reason why we haven't really made a ton of progress as a society is that we haven't yet acknowledged how really difficult this is because the answer seems easy in the same way that it seems easy to go lose weight, you move more, you eat less, right?
But that's still really hard. I know we all know the answer is simple, but the execution can be very difficult. And so if we acknowledge. This could be a difficult thing. I think we can begin to make some more progress because we know, hey, I got to really do something about it. I really have to focus my efforts towards this and it's not going to happen naturally.
[00:26:52] Hunter: Yeah. Yeah. I guess I'm one of the rare, I guess I'm one of the 9 percent of people who doesn't sleep with their phone. I haven't for years because I know that. I learned years ago the dangers of teenagers having devices in the rooms at night, and I know that I gotta walk the talk.
And in fact, I remember my daughter saying, and I used to have my phone as an alarm clock, and my daughter saying, But you keep your phone in your room and be like, oh, dang. I love it. That's right. I do. And then I went and got myself an alarm clock. People, there are such great alarm clocks now. You have no idea.
Oh, they're amazing. There are ones, the sun, like the light slowly filters it. That's what I have. I just love beautiful birds. Anyway, get an alarm clock. It's great. But like you, because you can't tell your kids. You can't have your phone at night unless you're doing that. So everybody needs, if you're going to create healthy habits for your kids.
The whole family needs to be plugging those things in at night downstairs. I'm like a Nazi about this in my family. Sorry to my children, but I feel like this is such an important boundary. And yeah, but it is incredibly hard. There's so many factors that people have in their lives, that, That play into it, that, of course, I don't even know.
[00:28:09] Joey Odom: You, you just said, I think the most, and we'll talk a lot about this, the most important step that everybody wants to glaze over is your own personal responsibility, period. The number one predictor, let me back up a quote, Everybody wants their kids to do great, to have a great relationship with their phones.
Everybody wants their kids to do great with their phones. However, the number one predictor of your child's future phone usage is your current phone usage. So let me say it one more time because we got to drill this into our brains. The number one predictor for your child's future phone usage is your current phone usage.
When they began tracking smoking from when they began tracking smoking to now, smoking in adults is down 78%. From when they began tracking smoking in kids to now, that number is down, you guessed it, 78%. The exact same percentage because what you model to your kids will be normal to them. Hunter, we've followed as parents, we have followed the three M's of parenting when it comes to smartphones, the three M's.
We, the first one is we as parents Again, this is no shame, this is no, this isn't pointing fingers, this is a matter of fact. Including myself. We have modeled, one, we've modeled a poor relationship with our phones, that we'll phone snub our kids when they're talking to us, we'll keep them at the dinner table, we'll sleep next to them.
We have modeled a bad relationship with our phones. Then we give our kids a phone one day, and what do they do? They mimic exactly what we've modeled. And then we do something absolutely crazy with the third M. We get mad at our kids for mimicking what we modeled. Where the heck do we think they learned it?
But what if instead we modeled a great relationship with our phone? What if instead when they were talking to us, we put our phones away and looked them in the eye when, what if we began that at a very young age? And then what if, just what if, when they got a phone, they began to mimic that because they knew that human relationships are more important than phone relationships.
Then I bet you we could make memories or make magical moments or any other cool M you can put there at the end. But it all begins with what are we modeling as parents? It is on us. Absolutely. And people are going to want to listen to this episode and they're going to want to find out tips to how to get their kids off phones.
The only one I have so far, I got a couple, but the main one I have is model it well from a young age. If your kids are 14, 15, the pain's going to be pretty high and the stakes are really high, but if your kids are four and five, The pain is low, the stakes are high. So the earlier you can begin on this, the better and just normalize this great relationship with their phone.
So then when they get a phone, they will know what's normal and what comes first.
[00:30:42] Hunter: Yeah, it's true. My daughter goes for walks without her phone. I don't ask her to, but she does, and I think it's because she sees that. I think it's important to just, for us just to underscore here what are the effects of phones on kids mental health?
Let's just remind ourselves about that, because it's, obviously, it's like a tool that's so helpful, and it's super helpful if you need to I don't know, you really need to get something, or you need to do your job, or you need to do a meeting from home give them this, thing. It's very helpful, right?
There's so many ways it's very helpful, but we know it has some effects that aren't so helpful, too, to their mental health.
[00:31:19] Joey Odom: Yeah, it's, it is, it's such a snowball. From the way that it's keeping them indoors versus outdoors, and we know all the benefits of being outdoors and how and we have some friends of 1000 hours outside who talk about that all the time.
That the benefits of being outdoors are the mental effects on that. And we all, frankly, we all know the statistics. We see it, we know. That teenage unhappiness is at an all time high. And we know it began when smartphones came out. We just know that. And again, this is not me pounding on Apple and getting mad at Android and all that kind of stuff.
We, this is, these are just facts that we know that correlates with that. Now, the thing that I'll say, and we know, by the way, this is a matter of life and death, we know that. We know suicidal ideation is at an all time high. We know what kids are going through, but one thing I'll submit to you, and this is maybe an uncomfortable truth to hear, is that this began 17 years ago.
Teenage unhappiness began to spike, and it's not necessarily because kids were on phones at that time. But it is because, and I gotta, I almost cringe when I say this because I know it doesn't feel, it feels yucky to hear, is that because this, these teenagers today, that's a generation of kids who have grown up with parents who have been looking at phones instead of their eyes.
I hate that. And again, but it's worth saying one more time, this generation of teenagers who are experiencing all time highs of teenage unhappiness and anxiety and suicidal ideation have grown up with parents who have looked at screens instead of their eyes, but that should be to us like, okay, that means I can do something about it.
That's awesome. Like seeing that correlation makes, helps me know that this is the most hopeful opportunity I have as a parent. To get this right, right? You could mess up so many things in life as a parent or in relationships and all of that can be covered with your full undivided presence.
And I know how reductive this might sound but we know that's the highest correlation there. And so what happens when a teenage girl gets on social media and is faced with body shaming and bullying and body comparison, if she doesn't have that innate sense of value. To know that comes from connection and from eye contact from all these things they needed when they're young.
She won't have that resiliency or that sense of value to be able to withstand that. But if you can begin now, and I don't care how old your kids are, but if you can begin now, then you can begin to take this so seriously that, and here's we talk about this, we call this start stop. And here's what I would say for yourself is The start is start with yourself.
Don't blame your kids. Don't blame your spouse. Don't blame society. Don't blame the school board. What if you started with yourself and said, I have responsibility here for myself, and I'm going to model a great relationship with my phone. And then I want you to stop at nothing to get it right. You're going to fail.
You're going to fall on your face. But you got to keep taking drastic measures to get this right. This is, like we said, this is a matter of life and death and we can get it right, but stop at nothing. And if you don't do it right today, do it right tomorrow and get whatever resource and tool you need in order to get this right for yourself, because it is so important.
And again, I believe. It's the most hopeful opportunity any of us have as parents right now.
[00:34:29] Hunter: Okay. So we want to, those three Ms are very powerful. We're modeling, they're mimicking, we're getting mad. And of course we need to start with ourselves. That's where we, and you're right, I love the way you're describing like it's such an opportunity, big change for us.
So obviously we need to change our own habits. We need to. carve out times where we are without our phones or away from our phones in our lives where we can do those things. But a lot of parents Want to know like what is the goal for the ideal maybe kind of boundaries for kids at different ages and Maybe I was wondering if maybe you could speak to the idea of and maybe both ideal and maybe realistic tech sort of phone boundaries for little kids and then maybe middle and teenagers
[00:35:50] Joey Odom: I'll give you the I'll give you what I believe is the ideal and you want to, you're talking to a hypocrite right now because I didn't do this, but where we continue to see the longer you wait, the better.
There's a there's a new movement that's on the precipice of launching. It's called the hang 10 movement. And it's waiting until 10th grade for kids to get smartphones, which everybody listening just laughed at me. I understand, but waiting until, because we know that as a way, and we're talking about, we're talking about smartphones.
I'm not talking about a smart watch that may help you get in contact with them. I understand that. So I would say, and then, and so that's one, I believe that's definitely the ideal Jonathan Haidt did a masterful job of, as we all know, in the anxious generation of saying that kids now, he says that kids shouldn't get smartphones till high school and says they shouldn't get social media until they're 16.
By the way, that doesn't mean on their 16th birthday, give them a gift of Instagram. That doesn't mean you have to give them social media on 16. That just means that's the bare minimum earliest age where they could get social media. So I think those are some really good places to start. I would say that the,
[00:36:58] Hunter: It's interesting though, because I want to like, just push back a little bit for parents who are thinking, Mike, my girl's got phones earlier than that.
My younger daughter does not have a smartphone unless she has a Bark phone, which is a little bit different. But she successfully argued me into getting her, letting her do Instagram because it's one of the easiest ways, the kids, it's one of the ways that they are connecting with each other, like where she has met people, so the, her reason was we went to Family Mindfulness Retreat and she wants to be in contact with her friend from Family Mindfulness Retreat.
What, am I going to say no to that because she can't? The other friend doesn't have the other. Anyway, it's interesting to see and then to also then to watch this and to know I've talked to all of these experts about the dangers of snorting, but I also see some wonderful things.
She sends me these crazy horse videos, and that's really fun, and, some of the fun connecting pieces of it. Are really there for us. So it's really interesting to, so I just want to push back a little.
[00:38:03] Joey Odom: And you know why we should push back? Because we're all, we said earlier, we're all looking for a certain answer that is going to give us the prescription. And anybody here is a parent, that just doesn't exist, right? It really doesn't exist. What I will say along with that, and we've heard I think one of the best pieces of advice that I've ever heard And again this wades into the gray and the nuances that when you give your kid a phone or you give them social media, just be ready to triple down your efforts on being involved.
So it's okay to go read through your child's Instagram direct messages. That's okay. It's okay to do it. That is perfectly fine because you are their guide. You're taking them by the hand and you're helping them. You do have the experience that helps, Hey, this was maybe cause Hey, this is maybe inappropriate.
They may have been, that may have been inappropriate or Hey, I would, whatever it is that you as parents to give them guidance, but. I think whatever that decision is for you, I do think that it does require you to double and triple down your involvement and your efforts. That's not the time to back off and your natural tendency, I think you may agree with this, is the natural tendency is to want to back away.
Again, you asked for, hey, what are the ideals? I do believe that those are some of the ideals and I will say, I didn't follow the ideals either. And you know what? It's gone pretty darn good. It's, we, my kids are doing fine, and they're, they really are doing well. I'll give you an example for us.
Our, we were, we moved from Atlanta to Tennessee. Before my daughter's seventh grade year and I didn't want her to be the outcast at school. I, when she met new people, I wanted her to be able to give her phone number and for to get their phone number. So we gave her a smartphone and it's gone great.
Now we've certainly have ongoing conversations about, about phones and dialogue about that. We had Aro in our homes. We believe we had the good foundation for a great relationship with their phone and they do really well with it. So I agree with you. It's when we weighed into the nuance of it, it's it's probably not as clear cut but the one thing I would encourage you to is listen to the studies.
Follow your convictions and then band together with like minded people. That's so important is if you could begin it, I'm going to say, I'll just say a grade right here, and this is not gospel, but if you start at fifth grade, start at fifth grade with other parents who have similar values and decide together what you think would be a helpful, appropriate approach to that 10, they can give some good resources for that.
But you begin at that age because then you eliminate this whole, Idea of Oh, everybody has a phone, but me like, hold on one second. Cause I know we got 10 other families who are involved here. So I believe that's a good opportunity. If you're at a school where parents are very involved, that's a great way to do it.
I don't know that we got as prescriptive as a lot of parents might like, but I think a few of those guidelines are important. And the last thing I'll say on all this is every plan in history that's been created has been imperfect and that's okay. But I encourage you, if you have a plan inspires confidence, so you just need a plan to walk this out.
And if you put together three to five guidelines for yourself, and one of them including be involved, and then the other thing I'll include is what you said before, and again we may give very few mandates. One mandate we say is no phones overnight for kids in their rooms. Just don't do it. The most effective form of torture in all of civilization is sleep deprivation.
Sleep deprivation. Don't do it. Nothing good is going to happen from it. Your kids are going to be okay. And it's, for those who have already done that, it's hard, but you got to break it now. It's still located. It's, it is okay to say to your child, for your own good, you can't have your phone in your room at night.
That's a good thing to do. That is a loving thing to do for your kids.
[00:41:42] Hunter: And then walk the talk with them. Take your own phone out of your room. Get what a lovely alarm clock and say, hey, I'm doing this too. Your kid will be so much more likely to respect your new mandate if you are also walking the talk.
I love what you're saying about man together like minded people. It's interesting because like a number of years ago. I like the idea of the hang 10, wait until 10th grade. It's funny because before it was wait until eight. That was a thing. And I was like, Oh, okay. Like I like this. And the whole idea that other people are doing it with you really is helpful.
And that's such a great idea. If you have a fifth grader maybe start that conversation or see if, you can get the school to facilitate them, some, somehow you having that conversation. That I think that is true because what you're describing like, kids are, we're way, way too obsessed with safety outside of the house and not obsessed enough with safety in these like little objects that we carry with us everywhere.
And then I've heard, I've seen a, I've seen a meme going around Instagram, so ironic of course, that it's give, when you give your, when you're ready for your kid's childhood to end, that's when you give them a phone. That's true though, I mean it's so true, like this is a, maybe a device for connection or responsibility, I mean we do have to keep in mind these other pieces of like, how do kids connect with each other I used to be on that long ass phone cord. He's called into the kitchen closet. And my kids just don't have a house phone to be able to do that. They're not talking on the phone. They text. Yeah. It is a different world. I don't know. I think there, there definitely are way, devices. I know you have a thing. We really- and they're not a sponsor. BarkPhone, you should sponsor the podcast! I love her bark phone, it's so great with great parental controls, but but you went into some work creating some ways to create boundaries for it, and you have developed RO, which you mentioned earlier, and It's a tool that helps the whole family to monitor and regulate screen time usage. Can you tell us how that works?
[00:43:55] Joey Odom: And just another, to your point, quick shout out to Bark Bark is doing great things. They're saving lives as well. That's a great organization. We're big fans of theirs. Yeah. All right. Aro began, by the way, just as a quick preface, Aro is a term from the Maori culture that means to notice, to turn towards, to take heed.
It's one thing to talk about, put down your phone, but there's nothing motivational about being away from your phone. But I'll tell you what is motivational, what is inspirational is turning and noticing the people around you and taking heed of what's happening around you, maybe even a feeling that you're having.
And they're- there's a really brilliant person who talks about mindfulness, her name is Hunter Clarke-Fields, so you should all listen to. But just being mindful, like being able to notice what's happening on inside of yourself. And that's the goal for Aro. So we, that, that is only unlocked when you are away from your phone.
So Aro is a screen time solution for families. It's for parents to model this to your kids. That makes it easy to break that proximity from your phone. That we gamify the experience of being away from your phone. And it is we've been on the journey for a couple of years and it has been absolutely mind blowing to see the effects that it's having on people's families bring this into family. So when you have an Aro membership, it's for the entire family. It's not individual membership. So you pay one price for the entire family and the average RO member. Again, we said 91 percent of people have their phones with them 24 hours a day. The average Aro member during waking hours spends an hour and a half away from their phone a day. So you can- it tracks the amount of time that you're physically distant from your phone. You can even tag it and see what the activities you've been doing. So I know how much family time I have had phone free this year, which is awesome. Because it's all built around the habit. It's, this is a habit. A lot of people would call it addiction. I, we can debate that a little bit, but if we'd consider it a habit, then we know in an addiction you have no agency and with a habit you do have agency. So I like to believe that this is a habit because then I believe that I can do something about it.
And a habit begins with a cue and so the Aro app is notifying you: “hey spend some time away”. A cue goes into a routine of putting down your phone and that crescendos in a reward. And so this is all built around the habit loop and those reward systems and feeling, feeling good, get the badges in the app and all that kind of stuff. But the real reward is this life that happens on the other side of your phone. And for those who may say, Hey, this is, this is just what the world looks like. There's nothing I can do about it. I'll challenge you with this story and it's from me because there was no bit that you all know from the beginning, there's no bigger perpetrator than me on this.
So four years ago we had just began beta testing Aro and that wasn't publicly available. It was just a beta test. And so my daughter Gianna and I, she was 10 years old at the time. We sat down, we watched a movie together and at the end of the movie she turned to me. And she said, and she wasn't being judgmental and she wasn't being congratulatory.
Either one of those. She said, daddy, did you know that's the first time we've ever watched a movie and you haven't had your phone? And in a way, Hunter, that kind of was a punch in the gut, but in another way, I felt really good about it. I said, Oh, I just did something really good. I'm proud of myself.
I guarantee you, the next time we watched a movie, I wanted to have that same feeling again, so I didn't have my phone again. Because our kids we forget, back to this term, notice, the RO means, our kids notice everything we're doing. Our kids, you know this, our kids are adapting machines.
They learn, adapt, learn, adapt, learn, adapt. And so they're just adapting to the normal environment that's placed around them. So for her, she had just noticed that I was always on my phone when we were in, when we were trying to share a common experience. But this moment, she didn't. So I, this came up and I believe the date was May 19th of 2020 and I know that because I wrote it in my five year journal and I read it in May a couple months ago and I said to Gianna, I said, Hey, do you remember when you said this to me when we watched that movie?
And she did, she remembered and she laughed and this is four years later. Let me remind you, it's not that long. Four years later, she laughed and she goes, Dad, it would be so weird if you had your phone during a movie now. So think about the normal environment that's changed for her. And this isn't about her and me watching movies.
This is about her expectations for a future relationship with anybody. This is about her. What is it going to be when she goes out on a date someday and the guy across the table might be looking at his phone the whole time? If I've trained her right, then she'll order the most expensive thing on the menu, let him pay and never see him again.
So the, she is, her expectations for relationship are getting shifted because of that, and she knows how good it feels to be on the receiving end of someone's full presence, and she knows how bad it feels to be on the receiving end of someone's partial presence. So this to me, and RO is what has unlocked this for me.
It is for me and I am so biased when I say this, it's the most effective tool in the world to help you break your proximity to your phone. So if you've struggled with this, all you have to do is go download the RO app. This is not a sales pitch for us. I promise this is for you. I don't care if you join RO or not, but we do have, it is free for seven days.
Go download the app and just try it. See if this works for you. I know for my life, it's done, it's changed everything for me and it's changed thousands of other families. for the better that they can be fully present with each other.
[00:49:01] Hunter: And you're creating that banding together. You have a box or something too, right?
Like a charging, like a put the phone away thing.
[00:49:08] Joey Odom: Yeah, you can level up with an Aro box. The Aro app is available as an app, as a subscription which is tremendously helpful. If you want to level up, we do have this beautiful Aro box. I don't know if you record on video, but it's over my shoulder here.
This beautiful white box that charges your phone. You drop it in there. When you drop it in the Aro box, it automatically connects to your phone. So it begins automatically tracking the time for you. And it says visual display, a visual display of what's valuable to your family. So it's more than just a phone box.
It says in my home, the Odom family, it says we are a present family. The Odom family is present. The Odom family prioritizes human relationships over phone relationships. So it's a powerful tool and it's also a powerful visual reminder of who you aspire to be.
[00:49:52] Hunter: Yeah. I like that idea. The phone, we've always had like a strong boundary around, dinnertime, yet the phones are sneaking into dinnertime in people's pockets, and I'm like, ah it's like the, it's like seeping in.
I gotta stop this. I like the idea of the objects. It's such a cool, I think that's such a wonderful way to bring people together and to, create some action to to change those habits. And you're right. It's yeah, I've shared this on the podcast before, but one of the things that drives me most thinking about this and doing the work I do here is I had a teacher the great Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh, and he said when you love someone.
The best thing you can offer is your presence. How can you love if you are not there? And it's oof, if you're not there, and I think that's the underlying message of this whole conversation is let's like, what do we, what do we do about these phones? We need to stop them from taking us away from what is most important in our lives.
Joey, this has been so valuable and so lovely to talk to you today. Where can people find out, find you, and talk to you a little bit more, and are there final words you want to say to the listener?
[00:51:01] Joey Odom: Sure. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. People can go to the app store and download the Aro app- spelled A-R-O. Just go download the app. No obligation trial for you to see for yourself if it's something that could be helpful for you. And I'll say this again: this isn't a product pitch. If I want you to stop at nothing and if Aro is that, that's stopping at nothing, then that's great. If it's something else. Just do it. Don't be paralyzed. Don't know paralysis by analysis. Take your best step today. Take your next step today. So that's one. You can find us. You want to learn more about the company? Go ro. app is where you can find us. And I think that the final word I'd love to say here, Hunter is for people to really, Take some hope here.
This is nothing but hope. We have to feel the discomfort. We have to know it's at stake. But this is hopeful. And so this is available to you. And maybe just one step that someone could take today. is look for moments of potential connection with the people around you. And so when you do that, look for these moments, maybe where your daughter says, Oh, I had a rough day of volleyball.
Or my son says, dad, can I talk to you about something? Or my wife says I'm really struggling with something. Look for those moments. And then say what I believe are the six most powerful words in the English language in 2024 in a relationship, just say this, say, let me put down my phone.
And then physically remove your phone from the scene. Just go put it physically away and then sit down and look in that person's eyes. Because here's what's that's telling to them, saying to them is there are 8 billion people on earth who can theoretically reach me on my phone. And right now you are the most important one of all of them.
You're all I see. So what does that do for intimacy in a relationship for closeness in a relationship with someone feeling seen and loved and known? What does that do for a 14 year old girl? The next time that she's confronted with. Body comparison or bullying when she knows inside, no, I'm valuable. I know that because my dad looks in my eyes when I talk to him.
What does that do for my son? A young man who wants to be a good man. What does that do for my wife and me who've been married for 20 years and still every day have to fight to restore intimacy and have intimacy in our marriage. That is a game changer. And you don't have to subscribe to an app and you don't have to buy a box that's available to every single person listening today.
[00:53:10] Hunter: Lovely. Thank you so much, Joey. It's been a pleasure to meet, to talk. Can't wait to come and talk on your podcast soon. And thanks so much.
[00:53:20] Joey Odom: Thank you, Hunter.
[00:53:26] Hunter: Hey, I hope you enjoyed this episode. I think I feel like we've all had some moment where we've missed something and it's it hopefully is a wake up call for us. If you got something out of this episode, please text a friend about the show today. Just take a screenshot, text it to somebody who could use it because goodness knows we all could, I'm sure. And if you're looking for other episodes that relate to this theme, that dive deeper go to episode #370 with Dr. Victoria Dunckley's “Tech Making Kids Moody, Crazy Lazy?” and then episode #367 with Catherine Perlman “First Phone”. Those are both going to be really helpful for you if you're trying to figure out this dance we do with technology with your kiddos right now.
And this episode has been part of a Kids’ Health series. This has been the fourth in it, and last week we talked about kids healthy eating and vibes; and then western and holistic health for your child; and outdoor adventures for happier kids. So much great stuff here. Next week we're going back to your regular scheduled programming, but in fact we're bringing back someone amazing that we really love. And we're gonna be talking about little kids. We're gonna be talking about love and limits for littles next week with Rebecca Hershberg. So be sure you are here for that. And that's all I've got for you today. The sun started to peek out. It's been gray here, you guys, recently.
And so the sun is peeking out. I think I'm gonna take my dog for a walk. I've got Piper is our dog. She's a rescue pitbull. She's the sweetest thing. And she wants to go sniff around the whole neighborhood. So I'm gonna go for a very patient walk where I let her sniff around the whole neighborhood and hopefully see something besides clouds. It's been so rainy. Yeah. I'm wishing you a great week. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for being part of the Mindful Parenting community and for any sharing of the podcasts you do or reviews. All of those make such a big difference and really like me and the whole team that puts on this podcast. We really appreciate it. We are a small mama owned business and and we appreciate all the support you can get, even supporting our sponsors. That's so great. And yeah, I'm wishing you a great week. I hope this episode gives you some clarity, hopefully around some challenging issues in your life.
And, we all get, we get some clarity. Things get messy again, we get some clarity. It comes back and forth, and that's okay. Remember, perfection is not the goal. It's not possible. You're allowed to be human, and I gotta remind myself of that too. And let yourself be human this week. And thank you. Thank you from my heart for being here and I will talk to you again real soon next week. Namaste.
[00:56:38] Mindful Mama Member: I'd say definitely do it. It's really helpful. It will change your relationship with your kids for the better It will help you communicate better And just I'd say communicate better as a person as a wife as a spouse. It's been really a positive influence in our lives So definitely do it I'd say definitely do it. It's so worth it The money really is inconsequential when you get so much help Benefit from being a better parent to your children and feeling like you're connecting more with them and not feeling like you're yelling all the time or you're like, why isn't this working? I would say definitely do it. It's so worth it. It'll change you. No matter what age someone's child is, it's a great opportunity for personal growth and it's great investment in someone's family. I'm very thankful I have this. You can continue in your old habits that aren't working or. You can learn some new tools and gain some perspective to shift everything in your parenting.
[00:57:41] Hunter: Are you frustrated by parenting? Do you listen to the experts and try all the tips and strategies but you're just not seeing the results that you want? Or are you lost as to where to start? Does it all seem so overwhelming with too much to learn? Are you yearning for community people who get it, who also don't want to threaten and punish to create cooperation?
Hi, I'm Hunter Clarke-Fields and if you answered yes to any of these questions, I want you to seriously consider the Mindful Parenting membership. You will be joining hundreds of members who have discovered the path of mindful parenting and now have confidence and clarity in their parenting. This isn't just another parenting class.
This is an opportunity to really discover your unique, lasting relationship, not only with your children, but with yourself. It will translate into lasting, connected relationships, not only with your children, but your partner too. Let me change your life. Go to mindfulparentingcourse.com to add your name to the waitlist, so you will be the first to be notified when I open the membership for enrollment.
I look forward to seeing you on the inside. Mindfulparentingcourse.com.
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