Amy Wilson is the author of the memoir "When Did I Get Like This?" and her latest book, "Happy to Help". She's also the co-host of "What Fresh Hell: Laughing in the Face of Motherhood," a Webby-honored parenting podcast. She is a mother of three, and lives with her family in New York City.
535: Are You a People Pleaser?
Amy Wilson
Are you a people pleaser or a perfectionist? This episode is for you. Hunter talks to Amy Wilson about how women are often conditioned to prioritize others' needs over their own, leading to emotional labor and feelings of inadequacy. They talk about the importance of redistributing household responsibilities and the cultural conditioning that influences perceptions of busyness and productivity, as well as themes of co-dependence, the importance of being present in relationships, and the challenges of parenting.
Ep 535- Amy Wilson
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*This is an auto-generated transcript*
[00:00:00] Amy Wilson: I'm worthy when I'm unsure. When I'm I don't know what's supposed to happen next. I'm still worthy.
[00:00:08] Hunter: You're listening to The Mindful Mama Podcast, episode #535. Today we're talking about being a people pleaser with Amy Wilson.
Welcome to the Mindful Mama Podcast. Here, it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Mama, we know that you cannot give what you do not have, and when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clarke-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting Course and Teacher Training, and I'm the author of the International Bestseller, raising Good Humans Every Day, and The Raising Good Humans, a guided journal.
Hey, welcome back to the Mindful Mama Podcast. So glad you're here. Listen, if you ever get some value from this podcast, please do me a favor, help the podcast grow by telling a friend about it. Text them. You can make a big difference to me and my team, and we greatly appreciate it from the bottom of our hearts. Today I am talking to Amy Wilson, the author of the memoir, “When Did I Get Like This?” And we're talking about her latest book, “Happy To Help”. She's also the co-host of “What Fresh Hell: Laughing in the face of motherhood”, a Webby-honored parenting podcast, mother of three, and lives with her family in New York. And we're gonna talk about being a people pleaser or a perfectionist if you've ever identified like that, this episode is for you. We're gonna talk about how women are conditioned to prioritize others' needs and we'll talk about household responsibilities. Influences perceptions of busyness and as well as the idea of codependence and being a parent. All the challenge, challenges of parenting with this. So I know you're gonna love it. Join me at the table as I talk to Amy Wilson.
Did you know that over a third of listeners, just like you are working full-time? If you are in an office, we have something that can make life a whole lot easier, both at work and at home. We're bringing the Raising Good Humans course, mindful Parenting to Workplaces. This powerful program helps parents lower stress, disarm triggers, and improve communication so they can navigate challenges with more ease.
We are offering a special mindfulness for stress reduction module, giving parents tools to manage stress, reduce reactivity, and strengthen relationships all while increasing overall wellbeing. Want to bring this to your workplace? Let's talk email support@mindfulmamamentor.com to learn more.
Amy, thank you so much for coming on the Mindful Mama Podcast. Thank you, hunter. Thank you for having me. I'm so glad you're here. Yeah, I'm excited to talk about your new book, “Happy to Help: Adventures of People Pleaser”. I checked it out in a 2022 poll of a thousand US adults, 56% of women and 42% of men said they describe themselves as people pleasers. And so I think for women there’s a lot more at play. Women are expected to be caretakers and nurturers, and this kind of leads, many of us, many women to internalize a belief that our worth is tied to the ability to please others maintain harmony. There's not only just the emotional labor, but all the other labor around it. Do you identify with that? Where did this start for with you?
[00:03:57] Amy Wilson: I think that it surprises me, that study, which I've also seen that there's only a 14% difference because I think women are conditioned to put other people's wants and needs before their own, particularly once we become parents.
That's. The assignment. And then when you do it and it becomes a struggle, it's given back to you, handed right back to you as proof of your own insufficiency. You're such a people pleaser, and if you weren't such a people pleaser, then you wouldn't have problems. And I, what surprises me actually, that 42% of men do identify as it, because I think people, please, you're a perfectionist control freak.
A lot of these things are really gendered terms when you stop and think about them. And I think they're the things we. Call women when they say, Hey, wait, this isn't working. And I really started to question that as I went through this book because the book is all these different times in my life that I stayed too long, try too hard, didn't give up when I should have given up, applied the wrong lessons of a sticktoitiveness person who sees things through and I'm overly reliable.
And when the going got tough. I would try to fix something about myself or fix my mindset instead of reversing course or giving up or saying, no. It's not a personality flaw in me that I think, this doesn't work. This doesn't work.
[00:05:18] Hunter: Yeah. Yeah. I could see that and I could definitely see it like being more men than when you also talked about you grew up.
Catholic and I grew up, I didn't grow up Catholic, but I grew up in a Catholic town like where everybody was. So many people are Catholic that there was first communion parade like down the street. We didn't have
[00:05:33] Amy Wilson: a parade, but I definitely grew up in a town where it was the default mindset. Yeah.
Everybody went to church every week. Yeah.
[00:05:39] Hunter: It was the default. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's like a lot of, not to throw Catholics or Catholicism under the bus because there was a lot of great art as well, but. There's a lot of guilt, associated with get it doing things right and et cetera.
[00:05:54] Amy Wilson: Yes. And somebody pointed out to me recently that separate for, it was my son actually who had taken a theology course that one of the primary differences between Catholicism and protestantism, it was just this sort of idea that Protestantism we're talking like Calvinism, like that, that you were either damned or you weren't, and there wasn't much you could do about it.
You were on the good side of the wrong side. And I. And Catholicism there is it, people call it guilt, but I think it does come outta this idea like you can earn your way out. You can get to the good side, or you can get out of purgatory into heaven, or you can get out of limbo into purgatory.
There started to be all these. Logistical twists of layers of heaven. Like you don't wanna say a baby who wasn't baptized went to hell, so she went to limbo and you start to think that there's ways you can earn a certain spot by being a super good person. That I think is particularly present for Catholics.
[00:06:48] Hunter: So you could work your way out of it. You could try harder. Yeah. Could do better. Yeah.
[00:06:53] Amy Wilson: Yeah. And in the best way, like following the example of Jesus and living like Jesus did means being pretty selfless and putting other people first. And yeah, that's all well and good, but I think even expressed in that nuns take a vow of poverty and priests generally don't, nuns take a vow of obedience and most priests do not.
And so even within that, the expectations for. Catholic, male and female religious, the women are have been historically sort of second class citizens.
[00:07:23] Hunter: Yeah. I never understood that. But let's not get too such. No, we're getting a little.
[00:07:28] Amy Wilson: Theology weed. Sorry, everybody.
No, that's fine.
[00:07:31] Hunter: But yeah, I, as I, I said I mentioned to you, I have to out myself because in your intro you describe people, quote people who ignore the signup sheets and who quote, stay in bed as long as they like in the morning.
So that wonder if anyone let the dog out, which now that I have a 17-year-old and a 14-year-old, that's me on the weekends. Like I stay in bed as long as I want. I don't worry about taking. Letting the dog out at all. So anyway, I come from the other camp. I hope we can still be friends. But wait, so who lets the dog out?
If you have a, who lets the dog out in the morning? Like you don't know? No. The dog actually will sleep till 10 30 if allowed. And she sleeps with the 14-year-old.
[00:08:10] Amy Wilson: Sometimes my kids have made the mistake of letting the dog. Out as in, out of their rooms and then going right back to sleep.
And so if I don't get up to make sure the dog went out, then there's pee on the floor. But I wondered about people like you and here you are, that you can walk by a signup sheet and just be like, Nope, not for me. And not wonder who is gonna do it, if not you, and not. I feel like you have to justify being busy enough to not do it.
You just don't do it.
[00:08:33] Hunter: I, yeah, no, I just figure somebody who wants to do that will do it. Like it sounds like if somebody who wants to do it will do it, and if I don't wanna do it, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna do it.
[00:08:44] Amy Wilson: I've learned there's something in psychology through other publicity I've been doing for this book called Request Sensitivity.
No Demand Sensitivity. It's called, I guess that's it. A request becomes a demand that I have demand sensitivity and no, that tracks, that sounds right. That a signup sheet. I am sensitive to its demands in a way that you are not,
[00:09:01] Hunter: see, it's funny 'cause like I almost get like the rebellious opposite reaction to that where I'm like, Ugh.
Like they're. Making demand of my time and they're asking me to do things that I get a little like ordinary on the other side.
[00:09:15] Amy Wilson: Wow. That sounds wonderful.
[00:09:18] Hunter: But I think it works in my family. 'cause I think my husband is a people pleaser.
He, and I get, I got really, crabby with the kids when they're like, leave their banana peels out.
I'll leave that banana peel out and won't pick it up for two days. And I'll say, listen, this banana peel is driving me crazy, but my husband will put away all the stuff in the lunchbox. Whereas I won't do that. I just will ignore it and let it be their problem.
[00:09:43] Amy Wilson: And it's interesting 'cause I think, is that.
People pleasing. I think it's like shorthand for somebody like this, somebody who gets things done, but is the motivation always pleasing other people or is it just I really like and tidy surroundings? He's, he can be mo You're not always motivated by people pleasing when you're the overly reliable person who gets things done.
I'm not saying it always works for you, just that you're not always motivated by, I hope they're not mad at me, which is when I hear people pleasing. I think sometimes we we categories, we paint it all with that brush and I'm not sure it's that simple.
[00:10:15] Hunter: No, you're right. I think everything is so much more complex and we always try to put it into a box and yeah, it's all much more complex than that.
Okay. But you write about these two Bible characters. I. Martha and Mary that frustrated you. And anyway, I didn't know that story 'cause I grew up agnostic in this Catholic town. I didn't know any of the Bible stories. But it so explained. I was like, oh, now I know why they're called Martha's in the Handmaid's Tale.
It was like very helpful. But tell me, can you tell us about that and what frustrated you?
[00:10:44] Amy Wilson: Yes. So yes, in the New Testament there's a story, and when you go to church every week, as I did growing up, you hear the same stories every, at least every three years, you're gonna hear the same story. So this is a story of Martha and Mary sisters.
Jesus was in their town preaching, and surprise, he comes over for dinner with a bunch of his, disciples. His entourage. They all show up at Martha and Mary's house for dinner. They're hanging out in the sort of living room area of the cave. Jesus is holding forth, Mary's hanging out with him and the other, disciples.
He is blowing everybody's minds. It's amazing. Martha is burdened with much serving we're told. And it's that she's making dinner for all these people. And she comes in and she says, Mary, what? What are you doing? You need to be helping me. You need to be helping me get dinner ready for everybody. And Jesus says no.
Mary, you, he says, Martha, your mind is burdened with many things, but Mary has the better part and it will not be taken from her. And that is the end of the story. And what we're, I guess we're supposed to take from that is yeah, you're not supposed to be worried about what's for dinner all the time.
You're supposed to hang out and think about God. But nowhere in that story is Jesus. Martha, come in, you sit too. Put it down for a while. And let me send one of these men in to go and Yeah. Do some of the serving. We're gonna get pizza, let's order pizza and let's just all hang out.
No, it's just Martha. There you go again, worrying about nothing. Also, when is dinner gonna be ready? Exactly. And let's stop bothering Mary and get back in the kitchen. And so as a kid and as an adult, every time I hear this story. Clearly written from a man's point of view. It's but what about Mar?
But what about dinner? Nobody offered to help her. And when she said, I need help, they're like, stop saying that. Get back in the kitchen. And that's there's no kind of moral I can draw from that except of just outrage on Martha's behalf. Poor Martha, I would make dinner for everybody and then was told she was, a real pain when she dared to say, Hey, I can't do this by myself.
Of course, she wasn't asking any of the men to help either. But you see what I'm saying? Yeah. It's a very problematic story and I've always sided with Martha but there would be no dinner if Martha didn't make it. And why didn't they? Why didn't anybody help her? Why did things stay the same after she complained?
Complained, even complained. The word complaint is such a freighted weighted. We don't have to take it seriously. Martha's, and you don't have to actually listen or consider whether she might be right.
[00:13:01] Hunter: She's nagging. She's nagging. Yes. That's the word. I hate that nagging word.
I felt very sensitive to the idea of am I nagging my kids? If someone said I, they were, I was nagging, or I don't know, I would be pretty, sensitized to that kind of language. It's really gendered and it really is this, it's pointing exact exactly to that, like to this. Female that is overly concerned with petty annoying things and not and that's that's so frustrating. 'cause Yeah, somebody's gotta take care of life.
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[00:15:46] Amy Wilson: It's presumed that she will do that, and then it must not be that hard. And if it is hard, then she's making it harder than it needs to be. I. Why don't you just relax like Mary, look, I'm sure she'd love to. So you can see I have a head of steam built up about Martha and Mary.
[00:16:01] Hunter: Yeah, I could see that. And now I'm gonna feel guilty if like I'm at a party and I'm like really into a conversation. Someone's Hey, can you need some. I need some help in the kitchen and I don't, I'm like wondering would I relate to Mary? Would I anyway, maybe, and I don't
[00:16:15] Amy Wilson: always jump up and run.
I'm not always the first one to run into the kitchen, but I am sensitive to people working while other people are resting, that they're not jerks for working. Yeah.
[00:16:24] Hunter: Yeah. You describe a book Meditations for women who do too much and. In this, they talk about this idea of women who do too much, and you also talk about the idea of a perfectionist and realizing that men rarely call themselves perfectionists or you don't hear about men who do too much, right?
Like they're just called. Busy and successful. Yeah. Yeah, tell me about that.
[00:16:51] Amy Wilson: So this book, yeah. Meditations for women who do too much came out in the nineties. So I was like a young adult when this book came out or in college. I. And it was in the age of the Oprah Winfrey show too.
And it was the peak age of recovery culture which was this idea of this 12 step program, which I think is wonderful and does wonders for people, but it was being really over applied to you eat too much chocolate or like you're a chocoholic or a shopaholic. Everything was recovery.
Everybody was an addict to something, most of us. Many things, right? And so this book, meditations for women who do too much. It wasn't meditations for women who have too much to do. It was you do too much. And when I went back and looked at it, everyone was a little prayer like, help me understand that it is my own selfish need to be busy that is making my to-do list so long and making life so unpleasant for people around me.
And it was really written by a woman, but it was definitely from this point of view of fix, my broken need to have to do stuff all the time. And, I remember that sort of idea, like stop being addicted to having problems and then you won't have problems, right? Stop making things harder than they need to be and your problems will resolve.
Guess what? That doesn't always apply, especially when you get older and your problems become really problems. But it was another sort of thing that I labored through in the nineties that like you, with your mindset, you could set a course for your life. And if your life wasn't working out the way you wanted it, it was just because you weren't manifesting it correctly.
Stop. Wanting bad things to happen.
[00:18:24] Hunter: So do you feel guilty for your busyness?
[00:18:28] Amy Wilson: Yeah, I, yep. You try to conquer it by being more productive, so you'll be less busy. You try to conquer it. No. No. The more you do it's like Lucy at the chocolate factory, right? You start, you do it and they say, speed it up, and all of a sudden you're getting more stuff.
No, the Oliver Berkman says that in 4,000 weeks that getting better at getting things done just seems to lead to you getting more things to do. So working faster, isn't it? Getting a sense of humor. I talk about that in the book, like your mindset maybe it wouldn't bother you that nobody around the house ever does anything but you if you didn't let it bother you.
That was a very like seventies approach that I saw my mom grapple with. Like just roll your eyes and laugh. And even today, like to now, there's so much really good Instagram content. Circling oh, the, it's so funny that the guy doesn't have any idea what his, daughter's, classmates names are like, that's not funny at all.
It's that's true. But I think a lot of us consume that content. Yeah, you're right. It is unfair. We do have more of the work to do as a. But it's an end to itself. We don't actually try to change the situations that we're in. We just build up ahead of steam on Instagram and then go do everything.
[00:19:43] Hunter: No, that sounds like not the best answer for this. Yeah, I, yeah, it's interesting 'cause though, like as someone from the other camp, I do feel like I, I find myself, thinking yeah, like this, to me that would be unacceptable if everybody like and that of course it's happened to me as a mom in a family of four that like things just fall on me, but.
To me I'm like, no, like you have to help. This is too much. I need you to help with this. I need you to help with this. I am unhappy and I'm letting you know, and then I dunno, we're having the conversation, and I remember having the conversation about like doctor's appointments, like it, at some point it was like I was, 'cause I was staying home with the kids and then.
Transitioned to me doing my own business, and then I was still doing every single sort of doctor appointment. I was like, I am doing all of this administrative stuff that I am bad at. You need to take on some appointments or school contact or something. We have to figure out what, which of these you're gonna do.
[00:20:48] Amy Wilson: Yeah, I definitely did that. It, I wrote a book about redistributing the workload instead of changing our mindsets. And then I had to redistribute the workload in order to write a book about just that. So I certainly put some of these ideas into practice and having my kids are, were all in high school and I guess one in college when I started doing this.
And when I was like, everybody has to do more around here. I think that their first reaction was to be. Not just disincentivize, but truly baffled by. You guys have no idea how much I do. No, they have no idea how much you do, particularly if you are this happy helper who, like me, had integrated these lessons that you get a lot done.
You, you whistle while you work. I. You're pleasant while you do it, and you make it seem not hard that those are all sort of part of the assignment of being a good mom and wife and happy helper in the world. And so I think when, once in a while I'd be like, I can't take it anymore, that nobody knew what I was talking about.
They were just what's she doing? And getting much more specific about what needed to be done. And asking again and saying, and somebody is saying, sure, I'll take over the healthcare submissions and then not doing it. They, it's not perfect and it change is possible and change definitely happen in my own house, but it wasn't that all I had to do was stop.
Having excessively high standards and everything was fine. No, all I had to do was stop having excessively high standards and ask again, and then pick up the thing that somebody dropped and decide. We're not sending holiday cards this year or whatever it is. Things don't magically get picked up by somebody else when you decide you're not going to do them anymore.
And it's sometimes about getting okay with that instead of waiting for somebody to take over.
[00:22:36] Hunter: Yeah. Yeah. I have to apologize to everyone who does send me a holiday card. I really appreciate them. I like getting them. I'm sorry you will ne you never get one from me, but I love you anyway.
[00:22:47] Amy Wilson: It's like it's king keeping right?
That there was a study about king keeping. And how often that work gets done by women and because it's work that's done by women, it's same thing outside. Oh, there she goes again, spending a lot of money on holiday cards. But they are how you. You know what your cousin's names are because and your cousin's kids' names and that this one goes to this college because of those holiday cards.
[00:23:07] Hunter: Yeah. No, I'm sad that I can't get it. I'm not organized enough to do, I could do it, but I'm just like, I haven't done it for so many years that now I'm just I don't know.
Maybe when my kids got to SC College, all
[00:23:21] Amy Wilson: my podcast co-host calls that the law of holiday attrition, that once you stop doing it, you should not pick it back up.
[00:23:27] Hunter: Oh yeah.
[00:23:28] Amy Wilson: Let it work in your favor. Okay. Do not pick that back up.
[00:23:34] Hunter: You you had a big takeaway at an Al-Anon meeting related to the ideas of this idea of codependence.
And I think this, it was, it's interesting 'cause that has, recently become a little bit more of a hot button word. And you said you wrote that you recognize in yourself, the compulsion to control the caretaking of others' needs in order to feel worthy. So tell us about that, because I know many.
Listeners can relate.
[00:23:59] Amy Wilson: It's another thing that I think is it is true and it can get over applied. Like when you're stressing about your high school junior's course load, I. I don't think you have to read a book about being a high functioning codependent. I don't think that's really what is going to lead to a solution that works for everybody.
But when you're dealing with addiction, of course it is. So what it really was is when I walked into the the 12 step meeting and encountered these ideas being, applied to addiction, which is the perfect storm of you can't help somebody else. You want to, you think you should, the world is probably telling you should, and you still have to let go.
And dwell in the hope, but the uncertainty. And when I got there, I was like, oh now I get it. It wasn't about you're addicted to chocolate. It was the. It was a perfect application of these ideas that I think has seeped out and been over applied to to everything. But those ideas are very powerful.
What I had to learn in my own life is I think I thought that saving the people I loved most, like my kids from any sort of pain or disappointment would be how I showed them that I loved them and that I needed to do that. And of course you don't need to, you shouldn't do that. You don't need to do that.
And when the people I love the most have been suffering, there was no part of them. It's like, why isn't Amy doing something about this? They were never assigning me that task anyway. But I really thought I could forever fix the lives of people around me. And I don't mean the barista, I mean like the ones who are very close to me.
And then I realized you can't even do that. And I'm, I'm not trying to people please the bus driver. I'm trying to people please with my husband or whatever. You can't even do that. You're not responsible for their happiness or sadness. Your job is to sit with them. Their job is to sit with you in those moments of uncertainty.
And figuring that out was really hard for me. But that got me further like again, you didn't have to hand off the baton. You didn't have to find somebody else who could solve the problem. You didn't have to ensure that they would solve their own problem In the case of addiction, you just have to coexist.
You just have to breathe together,
[00:26:21] Hunter: be present. Be there. Yeah.
[00:26:22] Amy Wilson: Be present. Yeah. Be there. That's what I learned. I'm here with you.
[00:26:25] Hunter: Yeah, and I think that for anyone who's listening, if you have little kids, like this is a great lesson to learn when they're young. Like that you, your job is not to fix their upset feelings.
Your job is you don't have to fix that. You don't have to solve their every problem and that your job really is to be present. Sit there with them and be there with them when they have these feelings. 'cause it's an inevitable part of being human is that these things will be there and we will have to we'll have to feel these things.
And that's,
[00:26:56] Amy Wilson: yeah. My kids are I have two in college and one in high school, and so I. We always talk on what fresh hell about the sort of perspective of we're the older sister is telling you it's gonna be okay. And what I really have internalized is this idea that when your kids go to college, it's not that you have pre bubble wrapped them or downloaded all the programs.
If this goes wrong, you know what to do. If this goes wrong, you know what to do. It's so that they'll be ready for things to go wrong. So that they'll be ready to be disappointed and to fail that they will have had experience in those areas so that a c in a college course isn't the first time that everything hasn't gone exactly their way.
Your job is to make sure that doesn't happen, not to make sure they one have a C in college.
[00:27:44] Hunter: Stay tuned for more Mindful Mama podcasts right after this break.
[00:28:07] Hunter: Yeah. Your job is to make sure that they fail sometimes before they get there. Just not to make sure that it happens, but just to allow that to happen. 'cause it's gonna happen. That's part of life. Yeah. To have that friend. You will make that mistake and say the wrong thing. It makes all your friends mad at you and you have to learn that.
Like you have to look, I don't know all the, all of those different things that we can't just. Protect them from That's right.
[00:28:32] Amy Wilson: That's right. And with older kids learning too, that when they aren't suffering, that you just say, that sounds hard and not, why don't you say this? Or why don't you just call them back and say that you don't, yeah.
You don't offer the solution unless specifically asked. Good advice for everybody, but certainly for older kids. And yeah, surprised those problems get solved.
[00:28:49] Hunter: You you had a profound experience that. Tested both your ability to let things go and to be organized around things. Your daughter had A-C-R-P-S diagnosis and Yeah.
I, my, my daughter struggles also with a nervous system disorder. Amps amplified musculoskeletal pain sin syndrome. And I've, I know a little bit about C-C-R-P-S 'cause I watched that documentary about. Oh God, it was
[00:29:18] Amy Wilson: oh my gosh. Heartbreaking. Yeah. But
[00:29:19] Hunter: yeah, that was we'll remember the name at some point, but the, it's such an acute experience of helplessness, of letting go.
You can't fix it. You can't, and you have to, you, you have to watch your kid being in pain.
[00:29:35] Amy Wilson: Yeah. Although that chapter starts with me in the hospital and the doctor saying there's nothing more we can do here. It's up to you, mom. And my kid was in. Excruciating pain. And they just were like, no it's up to you.
This is CRPS and it's gonna, we're gonna have to retrain urban. It's gonna take a while, and good luck. And I, and here's a pain doctor, you couldn't call and it was like an eight week waiting list and you really are sometimes. Handed this is what I mean the book isn't and you imagine you have to solve this problem and you don't like, no, I was quite explicitly being handed my fourth graders in intense, excruciating pain as mine to handle, and I had no idea what I was doing.
And of course, I had to make sure she didn't know that I was despondent and terrified. I had to put on a good face for her. So that's when this happy helper stuff is useful. Sometimes you do need to pretend like you have it all together, even when you don't. And then eventually, yes. The lesson was the way to solve CRPS without getting into too much detail is like your brain, you have an actual injury.
When you close your finger in a door, it hurts like the dickens for 10 seconds and then it quickly subsides. And when you have CRPS for whatever reason, that doesn't shut off. It's like the sprinklers are stuck on and nobody can shut them off. So the pain signal just goes and goes and amplifies and.
Even though in, in this case it was her ankle was sound. It was not fractured. She like twisted it a little bit, but there's nothing wrong with it. But it felt like it was like amputated. It hurt so much. And the only way around that is to very slowly teach the brain that the, they can, it can shut off the alarm system that there is no actual injury.
And it takes months. Sometimes it takes years, sometimes it never works. And. Just like she slowly had her teach her brain a little bit at a time that it was okay to put a little bit of weight on the ankle. It was okay to let somebody touch it first. I, in the same way had to know, learn like it's okay to not think about this for.
Five minutes. It's okay to not think about this for an hour. It's okay to not think about this for an afternoon and slowly back off from it. Tough lessons.
[00:31:43] Hunter: Yeah, that's an, it is incredibly hard because it's like the thing that hurts most is the thing that they have to do. Yeah.
[00:31:50] Amy Wilson: And right. And you have to make them use the painful limb in order to teach the brain.
It's okay. That's right.
[00:31:55] Hunter: When my daughter was Ampl was diagnosed with amps, like she was 14 and. I couldn't make her do it. I, I couldn't, I, I didn't know at that point I was like do I employ all, she didn't wanna do the things she was supposed to do. 45 minutes of cardio a day. Oh
[00:32:16] Amy Wilson: my gosh.
It would hurt, right? Imagine
[00:32:18] Hunter: in incredible pain, right? And she couldn't. Do it. And I couldn't make her do it. I had to really wrestle with that. I had to look at okay, do I go against everything like I've learned and I teach and use rewards and punishment? Do I sacrifice my relationship with her and make her hate me to make her body better?
Like I had to like, figure that out and I couldn't do that. And I don't know if that was the right decision, but I couldn't do that and I had to be on her side and be her coach. And she's is getting better on, on her own. But yeah, it is, takes years. She still deals with it but she's now I. You know about to turn 18 and she can, she can go on a long walk and she can go rock climbing and she can she's training, she's fill in a backpack with 15 pounds to go hiking 'cause so
[00:33:09] Amy Wilson: Wow.
[00:33:10] Hunter: But it's impossible sometimes the things asked of us, I got really annoyed for you too, be that the doctor just pulled you aside. Like, why didn't he just talk to you all as a family? Everybody needed to know this.
[00:33:22] Amy Wilson: Yeah. Everybody needed to know this, right? The doctor pulled me aside, took me to the little like room with the toys and crayons that no kid ever goes in at the hospital to say, it's up to you, mom.
And my husband was with me at the hospital. Maybe he thought that my husband should stay with. With my child. And maybe it never occurred to him of course the mom's gonna be doing this work. And I certainly thought so. There was, I did not pause a conversation and say wait a minute, what?
Let me get my parenting partner here. I was like, that's right. It's up to me. I'm super mom, I can do this. I will make her I will get her walking. And even though I had no idea how to do it. And yeah, we take on these assignments, right? And that's why it's not as simple as people need to understand that.
It's not fair to women, like we participate in these things. We think it really is up to us and only us because the world tells us that it is not. 'cause we're making it up, but we don't we don't push back. We don't, it doesn't occur to us too.
[00:34:14] Hunter: Yeah. Yeah. Do you do you buy into the stereotype that women are naturally better multitaskers.
[00:34:20] Amy Wilson: No, I don't. There's, I did a lot of research for the book on multitasking because when I started writing this book, I thought, okay, I have to do a chapter on multitasking. 'cause there is this thing that our brains are different and women's brains are. Can do more than one thing at a time. And men can't.
That's not true. And when you really go back and look at the research and the studies, that's not what they say. But the headlines just were like women's and men's brains are totally different. Men are from Mars, women are from Venus. Women can multitask. Women are better at noticing mess.
There was a real, oh, I guess it's probably 15 or 20 years now. A lot of studies about that. Like women's and men's brains are so different. And now it's coming back around. With a lot of female scientists doing studies, like that's not true at all. So here I was doing three and four things at a time and being no better at it than anybody else, it's taxing my mental faculties just as much as any male brain and me thinking that I was uniquely able to do this.
And so there must be something wrong with me that it was so hard. No,
[00:35:19] Hunter: lovely. Yeah. I have to say it for the listener. “Happy to Help” is not a self-help book. It's a series of essay and I think if somebody is a people pleaser, they're gonna really feel seen and really feel see heard and things like that.
But have you come to solutions for yourself, seeing, kind, looking at writing, examining, looking at these places where you've stepped up and said. Gimme that sign up list. Have you come to to anything to help yourself have more ease and space in your life and over the years,
[00:35:55] Amy Wilson: I've thought about some, I.
Ways to tell when you need to help and when you don't and when you need to maybe stop doing something. And I think if the primary, when you think of a an obligation that you have and your primary emotional feeling about it is resentment. Or dread at the idea of calling the head of the PA up to say, you're not gonna be able to do that thing this year, or whatever.
If the primary reason to continue to do something is that I really don't wanna have to say I can't do it, then that's something you have to look at. Or if you, your primary feeling is resentment and that's something you have to look at. But for me, all through my life, I really, I think I drew a lot of identity from helping.
From helping other people. And I wasn't secretly seething that they didn't see my true value like they did. They're like, you're just so amazing. And I just, I think I overlearned the lesson that I must be so good at it if people keep giving me more to do. And so I guess I'm supposed to keep doing it.
And that when I had too much to do and I felt overwhelmed, I thought, okay, let me, there must be something wrong with me that I feel like I can't handle this because I so clearly can, so maybe I just haven't tried hard enough. And one of the final examples of the book dealing with addiction.
I did work with an addiction counselor at one point from this Al-Anon point of view who was trying to get me to see that I, I could. I could change the life of somebody else that I was wrong, that it was up to me and I could do it if I only tried harder. And yeah, there was a big part of me that's wait a minute, I, did I get that wrong?
And then, and it was immediately like, maybe there is one more book I can read, one more thing I can try. And I was able to resist that because that's not the right thing for that person to be saying. But it almost got me because it made so much sense that's right. I, if I just try a little harder, there might be hope yet.
And very false very damaging and completely unrelated to what the person that we were talking about needed from me in actuality PS it was all a story. But just because we decide we don't want to take on too many things anymore doesn't mean that people aren't going to stop asking us to take on more than we can or should do.
They're not gonna stop asking. So it's up to us to say, that doesn't make sense that does this. I don't know the choice. This, I don't wanna do it anymore.
[00:38:14] Hunter: Yeah. There is that societal pressure. It's similar to. In some ways there's societal pressure to like, when your kids are little, to take the swim class and the tumbling class and you can't miss the music together class.
There's it, like there's all these different, there's pressures to enroll your kids in a lot of different things. And some of us do enroll our kids in a lot of things and some of us resist that pressure, right? Like it'd say. No, it's healthier for my kid not to be enrolled in all these things.
And like in some ways, being a caretaker to try to be a caretaker of ourselves first, is to be the mom of you and to not, and not overburden you and put you into many activities kind of thing.
[00:38:56] Amy Wilson: That's right. If I saw my friends going through. What they were, what I had gone through.
If it was I was watching another person go through, like their kid has CRPS, there would be no part of me that was like, why haven't they figured this out yet? Why isn't their kid better yet? I just would think this person is a superhero. She's amazing and she just needs support and wow. I'm I can't believe how strong she is or.
I can't believe how much help she needs and let me go, bring a lasagna over. But I wouldn't be like, why isn't she, why hasn't she figured this out yet? And why do you give yourself, why are you so hard on yourself? And you can give that grace to anybody else.
[00:39:33] Hunter: And there's that definitely that worthiness thing, right?
We have to figure out how to remind ourselves, that we're worthy without, yes.
[00:39:42] Amy Wilson: We're worthy when we're unsure. I say that like in the last paragraph of the book, I'm worthy when I'm unsure, when I'm, I don't know what's supposed to happen next. I'm still worthy. Yeah.
[00:39:50] Hunter: Yeah. I think that's so important.
I don't know I put myself in the other camp, but I was one of those people who got all the good grades and, did all the could do things well and get to, get all those college grades and blah, blah, blah. But, I've been in a place recently where I've been in a place of like indecision and indecisiveness and I've been trying to give myself some space to figure it out and not just dive forward into what is next.
And it's so interesting when I. Have given myself this space, and then literally my schedule opened up. My space opened up, and the feeling of okay, when we're not busy, we do have to think about like in some ways, like there's this question of being on purpose. What is that? What is it?
What is it that makes us feel that sense of purpose? And the work I do like with raising good humans and things like that really does that for me. But then, it's funny how quickly, like if you're not like busy doing the things that the questions of worthiness, I think do come up, right?
Like maybe busyness is a way to push that aside.
[00:41:02] Amy Wilson: Yeah that you are showing your capability. That's how you're showing people how much you love them by how much you do for them by removing sorrow and pain from their lives. Which again, nobody asks me to do that, but somehow I thought that was my job.
Yeah, that you're worthy when you're still, you're worthy when you're the one who needs help. You're worthy when you have no idea what's going to happen now that you're still worthy.
[00:41:25] Hunter: Yeah, I guess that's just, we need to remind ourselves that we need to remind each other that what is, do you have any final words of advice for other moms who are people pleasing?
How can they make the, make a change and be a little less overwhelmed?
[00:41:42] Amy Wilson: I do wanna make a plug for this book because we've had a wonderful conversation, but it sounds like a, and it's a very serious conversation and obviously these are topics I take seriously, but this book is a funny book. This book.
Starts with me, like making a fool of myself in eighth grade and there's, I have over applied the, I have to fix everything, lessons throughout my life. And most of the stories in this book are, I think, relatable and funny and won't make you sad. But I will hope would make you feel like fellow traveler oh, this person, I've been this person.
She sees me, she gets me, and I get her.
[00:42:16] Hunter: Yeah I will vouch for that. The yeah, we've had a serious conversation, but there's definitely a lot of humor in that, so they should read the book and they should feel seen and heard. Any other advice?
[00:42:28] Amy Wilson: Yeah, that's it. That's it. Speak up. Say you need help, and then say it again.
Don't when you say, I need help and nobody help, don't be like, I knew. No. Knew this wouldn't work. Say excuse me. Clear your throat and say it again.
[00:42:38] Hunter: Yeah. You you guys need to hear me. Yeah. This isn't working right. My needs are being met. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Amy, it's such a pleasure to talk to you.
You can get “Happy to Help: Adventures of a People Pleaser” by Amy Wilson anywhere books are sold. And this has been a pleasure. I love talking to you and connecting, and I'm so psyched for you for this new book.
[00:43:03] Amy Wilson: I'm delighted too. Thank you, hunter.
[00:43:05] Hunter: Thanks for being here.
Hey, I hope you enjoyed this episode. Yeah. It's hard. All the conditioning, these things that are subconscious, we don't even realize these things can really make a difference in our life if we don't make them conscious. If you identified with this or if you know you have a friend, I bet you know you have a people pleaser, perfectionist friend. Text this episode to that friend today to share it with them- you’d do a good thing for them. Do a good thing for the podcast.
And I'd love to know what you thought. Let me know. Tag me. I'm @MindfulMamaMentor. And I just wanna let you know, remember, you can leave me a voicemail with any mindfulness question, parenting question, anything at all. Leave me a voicemail and I'll answer your question here on the podcast. And you just leave a voicemail. You can record your question and if your question's picked, I will. Download the recording and answer your question on the air. So go to MindfulMamaMentor.com/VM for voicemail. MindfulMamaMentor.com/VM to leave your question and thanks for listening.
April means it is nicer. There are flowers we have gotten through the cold winter. So I hope you're enjoying it and I hope you're having gonna have an awesome week. And thank you so much for listening. Thanks for being here. Take care. Namaste.
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