Dr. Stan Tatkin is a PsyD, MFT clinician, researcher, developer of the Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy® (PACT), and best-selling author of the relationship must have book, Wired for Love (June 1, 2024). More than 1.7 million people have tuned in to Dr. Tatkin’s TEDx talk and his work has been endorsed by Gwyneth Paltrow, Esther Perel, Mark Groves, Alanis Morrisette, and more.
519: Be a Securely Attached Couple
Dr. Stan Tatkin
Does your couple relationship have a shared sense of purpose and vision? Hunter talks with Dr. Stan Tatkin about the importance of creating agreements within the relationship to avoid conflict and make things fair. They also explore the different attachment styles and how they can impact relationships. Tatkin provides practical exercises, such as the welcome home ritual, to help couples co-regulate and strengthen their bond.
Ep 519- Dr. Stan Tatkin
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*This is an auto-generated transcript*
[00:00:00] Dr. Stan Tatkin: And what's more troubling is that since I don't know what I never had, when I meet you and you have regular dependency needs I think you're crazy. I think you're too needy.
[00:00:14] Hunter: You're listening to the Mindful Parenting Podcast, episode number 519. Today, we're talking about being a securely attached couple with Dr. Stan Tatkin.
Welcome to the Mindful Parenting Podcast. Here, it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Parenting, we know that you cannot give what you do not have, and when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clarke-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children.
I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course and teacher training, and I'm the author of the international bestseller Raising Good Humans Every Day, and the Raising Good Humans Guided Journal.
[00:01:39] Hunter: Hello, and welcome back, or welcome to Mindful Parenting Podcast. So glad. You are here. If you get something out of it, please make sure you share it with a friend.
Tell a friend, text a friend about maybe this episode or another episode that you liked and it just makes such a big difference. Tell them to subscribe and it's awesome, and I appreciate it greatly. Today, we are going to be talking to Dr. Stan Tatkin. He's a psychologist, MFT clinician, researcher, developer of the Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy Pact, and best selling author of the relationship must have book, “Wired for Love”.
More than 1.7 million people have tuned in to Dr. Tatkin's TEDx talk, and his work has been endorsed by Gwyneth Paltrow, Esther Perel, Mark Groves, Alanis Morissette, and more. This is Stan's second time on the podcast, and we're going to be talking about attachment and your couple relationship if you have a parenting partner or a partner.
And we're going to talk about, does this relationship have a sense of purpose and vision and creating agreements within the relationship to avoid conflict and making things fair. We're going to talk about how different attachment styles that you may have or your partner may has and how they can impact your relationship.
And we're going to hear some practical exercises as well as this nice welcome home ritual to help couples co regulate and strengthen your bond. I know you're going to love this episode, so join me at the table as I talk to Dr. Stan Tatkin.
Stan, thank you for coming back on the Mindful Parenting Podcast. I'm so glad you're here.
[00:03:26] Dr. Stan Tatkin: I'm glad I'm here. Thank you for having me.
[00:03:28] Hunter: And congratulations! They're re second edition of Wired for Love. That's amazing! That must feel good.
[00:03:36] Dr. Stan Tatkin: It does. It feels good to correct things from 2012.
[00:03:40] Hunter: Oh yeah.
There's a new intro from 2012. Yeah, I met, there's a lot has changed in the world since 2012. What did you have to correct for, to share for the listener?
[00:03:49] Dr. Stan Tatkin: Golly, when I wrote that it was the second book and it was very heteronormatives only focused on dyadic relationships, not Tali, not any other arrangements.
And and so I decided to put a chapter in acknowledging that there are many different ways of organizing relationships and many different alternative ways to be in romantic relationship. And so I set about applying the theory to that how the book could also be applied to that. Now, of course, it's still.
It's still the book that it was, and it's still mostly dedicated to to dyadic systems. In other words, two person systems, but but it is it is sensitive to to all the things that have changed since that book was written and also brought it up to date with my thinking about structure organization being primary, being really important.
[00:04:45] Hunter: What do you mean by that? Structural organization being primary?
[00:04:49] Dr. Stan Tatkin: That that all unions and Marital Union or Love Union is follows the same kind of rules, have to be based on a centralized shared purpose and an idea of why that system exists, why that couple exists or it won't last.
So this is what we always do when we enter a free and fair union of equals, right? What's in it for us? What are we doing? What are the terms and conditions? So I can say. Deal or no deal. And unfortunately, couples are the only system. that does not do and goes in with a variety of ideas and expectations and fantasies and entitlements from family without any idea of why they're doing this other than love.
And so they are going to fight because they don't, they haven't built this thing that They call a relationship, which is an invention of the mind. It's an invention. And so if you're going to invent something with your partner, you might as well do that consciously and make sure you're inventing the same thing.
Otherwise there's going to be trouble.
[00:05:59] Hunter: Yeah, we all go into our partnerships, and for this purpose of the Mindful Parenting Podcast, we'll talk about parenting partnerships. And we have all kinds of assumptions that are based on all kinds of things, from our own parents, to Disney movies, to what we learned in college, to what we saw our friends do, and we're not really talking about all of these assumptions necessarily.
Hopefully, we are, yeah, I definitely didn't make a, I'm not sure I explicitly said everything I was expecting for sure.
[00:06:31] Dr. Stan Tatkin: Nobody does. And now I do, and people around me like this idea, they do. But it's one of those things that people aren't prepared for, that they're basically setting up shop ostensibly for the rest of their lives.
Or even much of their lives. And so you would think that they would think about what's ahead and how they're going to get there and where are they going to go. Many people enter these unions with a no deal lingering somewhere, but because they wanted to get married and they already are captured by the attachment system, they do it.
And then it comes up, this deal breaker of a no deal. Because they really didn't think about, is there a purpose for us? What is our purpose? Why do we exist? Who and what do we serve? And because those things aren't decided, people will always talk.
[00:07:27] Hunter: So for parents who are raising kids, should the purpose of their partnership be the purpose of raising kids or should it be larger than that?
[00:07:38] Dr. Stan Tatkin: Good question. So let's say I put it out to, to a couple and I say what do you want as your absolute central organizing purpose, principle? What are you going to put at the very highest of priority? And that goes to, who, what do you serve first? And many say children. Others say work, others say self, but many say children.
And then I ask the question what happens to the couple? And nobody seems to have that answer. We're gonna be parents. We're gonna be great parents. Okay. What happens when the kids vacate? Which they're going to eventually. Is this a marriage fold? Because you two don't have anything anymore?
You started it, right? This is your gig, right? This is your thing. And so what will happen? And nobody's effectively been able to answer that question. And so the only one that does make sense that I've vetted with people, and they can do anything they want, they just have to be able to defend why it's the best idea, is the relationship has to come first.
Because kids need happy parents. Happy parents happy. If if the parents aren't happy, they're not making each other happy, keeping each other safe and secure. If they aren't a good team, can they really manage everything that they're handling? Parents, kids, work, creativity, health financial stability.
How good are they going to be at that if they are fighting in the trenches and they are not they are not able to work collaboratively? everything will fail. And so if if thought of this, and again, we're governed by ideas, right? Ideas, pictures, images. If you and I decide we're the top of the food chain, we are in charge of everyone and everything, then it makes sense that we have to our goodness with each other has to come first.
Otherwise, everything and everyone will suffer that we're leading, right? And again, This is a hierarchical, structural, tactical decision tree based on how are you going to serve everything and what must be at the top, and so that's how it's logically thought through.
[00:09:58] Hunter: Yeah, you can't, when the kids are dependent upon you, depend, you're dependent on the relationship, the kids can't be at the top.
It's topsy turvy. We need to have a stable system. And in fact, in Wired For Love, you have a lot of arguments for like just being tethered to another person for just like being attached and you say the most powerful sustenance available to us is another person who's interested and cares. I think it's interesting kind of
[00:10:28] Dr. Stan Tatkin: read up and that we can depend on absolutely.
[00:10:31] Hunter: Yeah, and I think it's just interesting I think like now that you know we're in this world where you know, ostensibly we could do anything without even leaving our house and we don't need anybody and we're all so isolated and things like that. And, in the United States we're so obsessed with independence and not leaning on anybody and you talk about this idea of really advocating for attachment to another person and interdependence as well.
And I, it's and you talk about even needing attachment for survival. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Like why this, why is this so important? It's obviously, it's the top of the food chain for a couple, for parenting, but just for survival. Tell me a little bit more about that.
Stay tuned for more Mindful Parenting podcast right after this break.
[00:11:57] Dr. Stan Tatkin: John, Sir John Bowlby in the fifties and ends of the sixties talked about attachment as a biological theory, right? Not just a psychological one. So we could say a psycho biological. Very. And that means that infants other than unlike other mammals are born without the ability to fend for themselves at all.
They can't do anything. They're utterly dependent. on the adult that it hopefully exists after birth, right? And to protect them so they're vulnerable. That attachment bond is what gives rise to the infant's sense of safety and security and encounters failure to thrive. From the very beginning, our lives depend on the gods that created us, right?
The giants. They are everything. We do exactly what we think we're supposed to do, based on what's offered and what's not offered. And we adapt, and that attachment system sticks throughout life. Most of the time, with people, we get attached to puppies and dogs, we get attached to kittens, we get attached to girlfriends in junior high or high school, or boyfriends.
The attachment system is often confused with love, and I don't believe that is actually it at all. I think it's a biological mandate that keeps us together, nature's glue. So we remain pack animals, herd animals that pair bond, tend to pair bond in herds. So we are absolutely interactive creatures without interacting, without being with others of the human kind.
We tend to go a bit mad and if we're not interacting at all, we tend to go a bit mad. All of these things speak to the need for other people to be in our company or to be in their company in order to feel okay. This is true of pretty much everyone.
[00:13:56] Hunter: And I'd love for you to speak about the idea of this, I like this, nature's glue so we can remain pack animals, it's so true, keep us not, so we don't go a little bit mad but a lot of us are worried about a lot of people worry about oh, I don't want to be codependent and can you talk, tell us a little bit about the difference between interdependence and codependence?
[00:14:17] Dr. Stan Tatkin: Sure. So codependence was coined. By basically Alcoholics Anonymous, that's where it started. It was co alcoholic, then it became co dependent, and that namely was The person who gave up their own sense of self and rights in order to serve the alcoholic. In some way, they enabled the alcoholic they were to their partner what alcohol was to the alcoholic.
And therefore, it was a one way deal. It was not symmetrical. It was not it was not fair, right? It was not equal. Whereas interdependency means that you and I. We have the same things to gain and the same things to lose, therefore we are equals, share power, share authority, and we have to work together in a manner, if we want to stay together, that we believe is fair, just, and mutually sensitive, or we won't be friends, we won't get along.
So that's interdependency. We have a level field. We have parity. We're both mutual shareholders in this thing called a relationship, and everything that follows. That's the interesting thing. Now it's a shame that we have to make up new terms to counter old terms that have come to mean a lot of different things because of, about the media co opting of psychiatric and psychological and medical terms.
And then social media, you're using it as a pudgel to use against people, and that's not the intention. The intention isn't to divide people or otherize them, the intention is to understand.
[00:15:52] Hunter: Yeah, but
[00:15:53] Dr. Stan Tatkin: that's that often isn't true when people grab a hold of words like narcissism and codependency and boredom.
[00:16:00] Hunter: Yeah. I think it's important for us to remember that it's okay to be dependent on people. That's just our very nature, that's just how we work as humans to be able to do that. Now you mentioned a. We're equal, we're equal stakeholders in this relationship. And in fact, it's interesting and I'd love to, for, to, for you to talk a little bit about maybe what are some of the agreements we should have.
But it's interesting because as I was reading Wired for Love, I was, I had a lovely day. I sat on the beach and I was like reading my Wired for Love and really enjoying it. But it's interesting, as you were talking about in a section about, about older generations and how in a lot of older generations, there isn't this, there's a different expectation of there isn't an expectation of equal sort of contribution to the relationship, like women are doing all the emotional labor as well as all the household labor, and then you, there was some kind of term for like gray or white haired divorce or something where women get.
Yeah. Where women get tired of this unspoken agreement that they may have made 40 or 50 years ago.
[00:17:09] Dr. Stan Tatkin: Especially the boomers.
[00:17:11] Hunter: Yeah, I was really thinking of my parents with this and I've seen a few people but things have changed now. Things are shifted and changed. What are some of the, what are some of the unspoken assumptions that we bring to our relationships that we think of as agreements that might not have been spoken aloud?
[00:17:33] Dr. Stan Tatkin: We, we organized by something called social contract. And explicit and implicit. And the social contract of old, of our parents, was one that was complimentary. You're going to take care of the home, I'm going to take care of the money. And and those roles were assumed to be to be the way things should be, right?
So this, people weren't unhappy necessarily, all the people that weren't unhappy as it would be today if they had to assume those roles, because the social contracts were different, the understanding, but we were no longer that. That's been changing gradually and now It is unrealistic to see One person's going to handle only the home and the other person's gonna go away to work.
We know that has problems and The male dominated structure, particularly the white male dominated structure has been basically ubiquitous in everything, right? And so today I think things have been changing. People are saying no equal power equal authority or go home, right? And that's what I mean by deal or no deal.
As partners are getting together, they have to decide ahead of time what are going, what are, what is their roles? What are they going to do? How are they going to structure this? Are they pilots of the same airplane? or two different airplanes, right? So to speak. How are they going to divide labor?
How are they going to handle this or that or whatever in the future, right? And partners generally don't do that. Many do, but most don't. And some do, but only partially. They don't come up with how they're going to govern each other. And that's important because we're animals. We can do terrible things to each other If we feel like it, or if we don't feel like it, we may not do things that we should do.
And therefore we need principles of how we're going to protect each other from each other. Again, this idea that love conquers all is a fantasy. It does not. First of all, everyone's definition of love is different, but also people have done a lot of bad things in the name of love. And so purpose what are we going to do that we agree is either good or best or right?
So say us both, right? We create the social structure. We create the rules. We create the ethos, right? Our relationship ethics, the culture. And that is something that I would love for our culture to to teach young people who are embarking on relationships that it's a union that also has to be based on a sense of purpose and maybe multiple purposes and vision so that they're pointing in the same direction.
[00:20:27] Hunter: If I'm listening to this and I'm in a partnership, maybe I have a couple of small kids that I'm thinking. Ethics and purpose sound really lovely, Stan, but I'm not sure we've had the conversation about what do we do about the household chores and when, you say this, when you respond to our kids really aggressively, and I don't like this, or when when you spend this much money on this kind of thing, where I would like to spend it on this other kind of thing how do we go from this idea of a principles and purpose and ethics to the nitty gritty of we're navigating our daily existence?
That's
[00:21:03] Dr. Stan Tatkin: exactly what I'm saying. For all of those do these partners have a policy?
[00:21:08] Hunter: For example.
[00:21:11] Dr. Stan Tatkin: They don't.
[00:21:13] Hunter: No, probably not.
[00:21:14] Dr. Stan Tatkin: I'm going to pick at you because you're different than me and I don't like that. Your difference is, I want you to do it my way, and and you want me to do it your way, and we're gonna fight.
We have to remember, we're very warlike creatures. It takes very little to set us off and to feel threatened, and to begin to speak only for ourselves. Now, in other words, we tend to be pro self, under stress, not pro relationship, and that we fight. That happens everywhere on the planet. It's happened since we appeared on the planet, right?
This is the human condition. So without policies, to just use that word we're going to fight. What's the policy? What do we believe is the right thing for us, for now? What do we think is best? Okay. It's unfair that I have to do all of this and you get to do that. If our relationship wants to exist in the future, we have to take care of that stat.
Otherwise there will be trouble. There will be trouble. There'll be accruing of threat and resentment and injustice. And that's going to take the couple down. Sooner or later. Probably sooner. And we have to play fair and square. And the image I use is really of the three legged race, right?
Interdependence means that, yeah, we're separate, autonomous individuals. But we've decided to pair up and to join this union, this club, this group, this whatever it is, this alliance. Therefore, we have to work together or we don't make anything, we don't go anywhere, we can't make decisions, we're useless.
Period. And that's my point. Without creating purpose and rules, or I like principles, personally held principles, it's the Wild West. And we'll always do the Wild West.
[00:23:01] Hunter: Okay, so we need to sit down. And have these conversations. Dear listener, I invite you to think about what we talk about all the time here on the Mindful Parenting Podcast.
Think about. instead of using judgment, practicing curiosity, using, your I statements, all of these different things. But you also talk about when in Wired for Love you, you describe beautifully A, the need to have these conversations these purposes and things like that.
But also, some of the ways that we can get caught up. And you talk about the three styles of relating, and I was wondering if you could tell us about those three styles and where they come from.
[00:23:39] Dr. Stan Tatkin: Are you talking about the detachment styles? Island Anchorway?
[00:23:42] Hunter: Yes.
[00:23:43] Dr. Stan Tatkin: Okay, yeah. Those are those are more behavioral and the terms have been changed to make it friendlier.
For people because the actual terms may not sound very good, avoidant, dismissive, derogating of attachment values on one side ambivalent, angry, resistant right? On the other side and when we study attachment, when we study personality development it, I find it useful to divide.
These groups into either secure, or if we're talking about personality healthfully neurotic, right? ? And, right? And
[00:24:18] Hunter: I love that island, anchor, wave terminology. I think that is really a wonderful way of putting it. They're such great metaphors.
[00:24:26] Dr. Stan Tatkin: I like them.
But all it means is that if I really am insecurely attached and I've been that way, I'm going to behave differently. According to people in the clinging group, pretty much all the time in a love relationship. Or in in the distancing group, pretty much all the time in a love relationship.
So it's based on a memory of adaptation from early, early childhood and what is expected of me and what I can do. Again, what I didn't get and what was never offered to me is going to appear in the adult if it hasn't been resolved in a good functioning relationship, secure functioning relationship, right?
So that just adds an extra layer of predictability. If I'm in the Clinging group, I'm going to be much more negativistic, I'm going to be more clinging. I'm going to So
[00:25:16] Hunter: We're all on the same page. Can you tell us which one is the Clinging group? Wings. Yeah, tell us, define the Island, Anger, and Wave for us.
Thank you.
[00:25:24] Dr. Stan Tatkin: The Wings is a member of the Clinging group. It's a Clinging defense brought about by the the thousands and thousands of interactions between the baby, the infant, and the caregiver over and over again. When we study babies, we see how the babies adapt. to the attachment orientation of the mother or the father or both, right?
And we see those adaptations way early way, way early. So for instance in the wave baby the wave baby gets preoccupied. with the mother's attention, because the mother is there intensely a lot, and then not there, but in, in the presence of, but gets annoyed by the clinging. So the caregiver at once rewards clinging and dependency and at other times rejects it and the child feels punished.
Child wants to cling more and the child does not know what it's going to get. If it cries out, if it signals to the caregiver, right? So that child becomes ambivalent and very cautious and stops grabbing things for themselves. They wait. They're babies in waiting. They're children in waiting.
They're adults in waiting. Which makes them very angry. Because because I will not make decisions as well myself. I will not lead. I will not grow up and own things for myself and deal with difficult people. I'm always at the mercy of that insecure attachment, this person will be here and then they will be gone with me, they don't love me, they're not attracted to me right?
And so that's the behavior that comes out of training of a kind early in infancy. On the distancing side, the islands these babies. Are raised, generally speaking, primarily by the primary attachment figure by other avoidant, avoidantly attached individuals who tend to put the self before relationship.
So I, I like it if you were to just begin to be more independent before your time, before you're actually developmentally I stress independence, I stress you being yourself if you're not needed or wanted by me but I do bring you out when I do need you, which creates a problem. I'm being neglected on an attachment level.
By that I mean face to face, skin to skin, eye to eye contact over extended periods. Also being interested in that baby's mind. We need a caregiver who is resourced and interested in finding that mind. If those elements are somehow not fully developed in the caregiver, then the child begins to adapt and goes inside and begins to auto regulate.
That means self soothed and self stimulate as a mainstay of self care. We all do that. These children do it more than the average parent. And so I learn to not signal. I learn to not be needy. I learn to not be a problem. I learn to to take care of myself. And I think it's independence, but it actually is an adaptation to a certain kind of Nicola.
And what's more troubling is that. Since I don't know what I never had, when I meet you and you have regular dependency needs as a partner, I think you're crazy. I think you're too needy. I don't know what you're talking about. I never needed that. I never had that. I don't know what you're talking about, right?
And so these people are at a disadvantage developmentally also because they're a little earlier, where they are absolutely pro self and not pro relationship. They are when they're not threatened. The distancing group, the islands tend to distance, tend to think they're self sufficient, tend to believe they don't need anything, are always afraid of being co opted by someone else.
In other words, told what to do, their freedom is their wings are clipped, their freedom is taken away, their autonomy is taken away. And they're always looking for an exit because of that, because they never learned to engage with the primary attachment figure. Their only way of caring for themselves was to flee because they can't win in an engagement.
[00:29:41] Hunter: Stay tuned for more Mindful Parenting podcast right after this break.
[00:30:19] Dr. Stan Tatkin: So we have all these behaviors that are predictable based on a developmental trajectory that we observed. With the infants, right? We can see that that trajectory in a lot of the same behaviors that we saw in the strange situation. That's a a was a method of Mary Haynes where came up for measuring infant attachment between 10 and 18 months.
So that's all it is basically. It's not a personality, but it is a way that I. I fear either being abandoned rejected, punished, or being smothered, engulfed, and co opted. These are those two sides, and so I'm responding to those fears constantly, and because I respond to those fears defensively, My defenses always appear as threatening to another person, and then they of course do what I expect.
They're going to smother me. They're going to run after me. They're going to leave me. They're going to get angry with me and pull back, right? Everything that I know is going to be reinforced.
[00:31:23] Hunter: This sounds like a bleak picture for the listener, but I can definitely hear some of myself in some of these I'm at in, as you're describing these different things, I know that I have some places where there's the, I'm an anchor on that secure attachment place, and some place where I have that distancing, and definitely my parents are very happy for me to be very independent as much as they could.
But you're saying that in Wired For Love, you talk about these. Different behaviors so that we can understand why we get into those sort of the same patterns with our, parenting partner again and again. So we can then maybe understand them a little bit more. We can understand ourselves a little bit more and say Oh, here I go.
I'm doing that thing again that I'm doing, or they're doing that thing again that they do because they were a little baby that was raised in a certain way, so I can have a little empathy. The from reading the purpose I see from behind all this is to really create more understanding and empathy for each other in this partnership.
That's what your aim is.
[00:32:20] Dr. Stan Tatkin: You're recognizing that this is actually part of the human condition. We're all like this, right? In fact, we could say all of what we call pathology is an aspect of the human condition amplified by certain certain circumstances, environmental circumstances, right? Or endogenous, right?
Inside genetic. But these are amplifications of what we all have. Given the amount of stress that we would get into, we could manifest everything. It is the human condition, it is normal, it is not a death sentence, it is welcome to the human primate we're naturally this way, difficult and and so knowing is a way to understand oneself and to be able to understand how behavior affects another person.
And if I'm constantly distancing from you forcing you to be more clingy I need to know that because I may always blame others for why my relationships never work out because I'm always distanced and nobody's going to like that unless I find someone just like me.
[00:33:22] Hunter: I really I really enjoy in Wired for Love, you have these simple exercises like the welcome home ritual can you tell us about this and why it's important?
[00:33:32] Dr. Stan Tatkin: I don't know if you remember David Shnarsh David Shnarsh, very famous therapist, couple therapists as well passed away a few years ago. It, this is not a new invention, this idea of embracing first thing before you you start your day or when you reunite with your primary partner.
But this is a little bit different in that the emphasis is on the autonomic nervous system. And, right? So you come in from outside, I'm at home, we're going to be in different states. The reason we want to embrace, particularly belly to belly because that's where serotonin receptors are and that's also where we start to feel safe is when the belly is protected because of all the organs there.
We go belly to belly and we hold each other and we we don't let go until we feel the other partner relax. We're averaging out our states, right? We're averaging out the autonomic nervous system to a level that is similar because the state drives memory. and state alters perception. So everything looks different.
Everything smells different. We don't see the house as terrible as we did when we walked in. In other words, instead of smacking into each other two different states of mind and body reunite and just for a minute or two or bold eye gaze. And I'm looking at you and I'll say, Relax your eyes so I can see your thing, and you'll say the same to me, and that'll do the same trick.
And then go about your night, go about your day, and you tell yourself, I think it's better. There, but that'd be better because it works.
[00:35:11] Hunter: I'll try it. Yeah, it sounds like there's a wonderful practice in the Plum Village mindfulness tradition called the three breath hug. And so you It's very much belly to belly breathing.
And actually, it also reminds me of sometimes my husband and I, we used to, we would look at the dog and the dog gets massaged all day long. The dog gets pet constantly. We're always telling her she's a good girl. She's gets all this, so we decided that we should treat each other at least as good as we treat the dog.
Sometimes when we like say, we'll be like, you're a good boy, good job, and he'll be like, good girl. It feels so good though, it's wonderful.
[00:35:47] Dr. Stan Tatkin: You know why? Because you're co regulating with the dog. Yeah. Having the dog and comforting the dog is comforting you and also it's going in both directions.
Both directions. Yes. Co regulation. And that's what we're built for. We are built to co regulate as human primates. If only we would rely on that more as partners. We do in courtship, but not at work many times. And so co regulation is how we roll and that is through touch, vision those are the two big ones actually, touch, vision, but also sound as well, prosody, the way we talk to each other can feel holding and comforting and regulate us, right?
And that's the way it should be, except you're using a dot, yay dot. Or a kitty. Yeah, kitty. That is exactly what I'm talking about. And that's why you do the embrace. Tor, you, Gok, you take each other to the bed like a decompression chamber, and you start petting each other. That'll work.
Just shut up. Just don't talk about anything stressful. Yeah,
[00:36:45] Hunter: why? A lot of what I'm getting here is like the, sometimes I say that like your kid, your relationship with your child is like a bank account and that you need to put more deposits in so then you are going to withdraw, right?
And that I'm, your, overall point in a lot of ways is like this relationship needs deposits. It needs effort. It needs work for it to be giving you dividends down the line, right? This is something that we can't just set it and forget it. We have to pay into our relationships with this premier partner so that we can really be there for each other.
[00:37:21] Dr. Stan Tatkin: The couple, if it accepts this idea, they are the energy source, they are the center of the universe, they co regulate in order to resource each other so they can deal with the slings and arrows of life, including the children. It's a hard job, parenting, no matter what. That hard job puts a lot of stress load on the couple, therefore they have to make time for themselves.
They have to be able to co regulate under the stress. Do less of dividing and conquering, right? But work together in this project, which is to make good human beings, right? Good neighbors, good citizens, good people, right? That's their, hopefully, their project. And that takes a lot of energy. So where are they gonna get the energy from?
Not from the kids. Maybe a little bit, but no, not, you're going to innovate. Only adult partners can actually resource each other in the way I'm talking, and they must make use of that or they'll poop out.
[00:38:26] Hunter: Yeah. And there is so much work there. As someone someone very similar to you said a while ago on my podcast, Parenting is Theater, and that we are doing a lot of modeling so there
[00:38:38] Dr. Stan Tatkin: you go.
Who said that? That's not mine. Who said that? I'm gonna sue. Parenting is theater. Parenting is theater. Show not tell. You and I are the exemplars. We're the Petri dish, or our home is a Petri dish of society, right? And if you and I aren't good at this relationship, they're not going to be good, right?
They're not going to be as good because they're watching. So our humility, our ability to fall on our swords when we're wrong, all of that has to be witnessed. Not only to each other in front of kids, but also to them, so that they begin to learn what it is to be, or to deal with a difficult person, or persons under difficult circumstances, right?
And so the couple must have its act together, it has to be a real deal, which is why I emphasize this. Happy Couple.
[00:39:28] Hunter: I wish we had all the time in the world to speak, but we don't. I loved I love talking to you, and I love your work, and everyone can get Wired for Love, and the second edition Anywhere books are sold.
Is there anything we missed talking about that you want to share with the listener before we wrap up?
[00:39:47] Dr. Stan Tatkin: Really take seriously this idea that All unions across time have always been predicated on a shared sense of purpose. So why are we doing this, right? Is it to stay alive against the forces outside of us?
Or is it to make money doing this project? Or is it to be successful at, the Olympics, if you're my skating partner? That flattens differences. That makes us focused. on things that we create and work together collaboratively and cooperatively. When we don't have those things, we turn on each other.
And there's evidence for that today. Any system that does not have a guiding sense of purpose and vision will start to create a civil problem, right? A civil war. We need to be joined together with where we are the same and where we agree. We will focus only on where we're different and where we disagree.
That's the human condition. That's lazy, but that's all of us. So build something.
[00:40:52] Hunter: So find your purpose. Yeah. You're making me think about my husband and I, is that anything? I think it's, I think it's okay. It's pretty good there. Stan, thank you so much. Again, Wired for Love is out. It's an incredible book.
Everyone should get it. And I've really appreciated you sharing your time with us once more on the Mindful Parenting Podcast and I, and it's been lovely. Thank you.
[00:41:15] Dr. Stan Tatkin: Same here. Be well. Thank you.
[00:41:21] Hunter: Thank you so much for listening. I hope this episode helps you and your boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife, partner, whatever you want to call that person, have a better relationship. That's what it's all about. Have a better relationship. That's wonderful. Wonderful thing to do. If you want to listen to more Stan Tatkin, you can listen to episode 349 after this- it's “Couples: Keep Your Union After Kids” with Kara Hoppe and Stan Tatkin. It's a great episode. And if you want more on couples from the Mindful Parenting podcast, listen to episode 211 with Sofia Ashley, “Rekindling Your Sex Life”, and episode 210 with Katie Rossler, “How to Make a More Equal Partnership”.
So I hope all these help you have an awesome, great partnership with a partner. And anyway, I hope this episode has helped you this week. Of course, if you like the podcast, please, just text one friend about the show today. Text it to somebody who could use it, and that can just make such a big difference. And thank you. Thank you for being here. Next week we're going to have an awesome episode from conflict to cooperation with Marcus Aurelius Higgs. So be sure to be subscribed and listen in on Tuesday for that one. And I can't wait to see you then. I hope you have a great week. Have some peace, some ease, some joy. Maybe you have some difficult but good conversations. That would be great too. And yeah. May it all work out in the end. And if you're struggling, just know you're not alone. Know you're not alone. And I wish you peace. I wish you ease. And I'll be practicing those things too. So I'll Talk to you again real soon.
Thank you so much for being a listener. Thank you for being here. And I'll see you next time. Namaste.
[00:43:30] Mindful Mama Member: I'd say definitely do it. It's really helpful. It will change your relationship with your kids for the better. It will help you communicate better. And just, I'd say communicate better as a person, as a wife, as a spouse. It's been really a positive influence in our lives. So definitely do it. I'd say definitely do it. It's so worth it. The money really is inconsequential. It's so consequential when you get so much benefit from being a better parent to your children and feeling like you're connecting more with them and not feeling like you're yelling all the time or you're like, why isn't this working? I would say definitely do it. It's so worth it. It'll change you. No matter what age someone's child is, it's a great opportunity for personal growth and it's a great investment in someone's family. I'm very thankful I have this. You can continue in your old habits that aren't working. Or you can learn some new tools and gain some perspective to shift everything in your parenting.
[00:44:36] Hunter: Do you listen to the experts and try all the tips and strategies, but you're just not seeing the results that you want? Or are you lost as to where to start? Does it all seem so overwhelming with too much to learn? Are you yearning for community people who get it, who also don't want to threaten and punish to create cooperation?
Hi, I'm Hunter Clarke-Fields, and if you answered yes to any of these questions, I want you to seriously consider the Mindful Parenting Membership. You will be joining hundreds of members who have discovered the path of mindful parenting, and now have confidence and clarity in their parenting. This isn't just another parenting class. This is an opportunity to really discover your unique, lasting relationship, not only with your children, but with yourself. It will translate into lasting, connected relationships, not only with your children, but your partner too. Let me change your life. Go to MindfulParenting.com MindfulParentingCourse.com to add your name to the waitlist so you will be the first to be notified when I open the membership for enrollment. I look forward to seeing you on the inside. MindfulParentingCourse.com
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