As a Communication Coach for parents of preteens with 20+ years international experience, Marcus Higgs bridges relationships gaps to form lasting parent-child connections in multicultural families.
520: From Conflict to Cooperation
Marcus Higgs
What is autonomy supportive parenting, and why does it help with your kid? Hunter talks to Marcus Aurelius Higgs about the mistakes we often make communicating with our kids and how to instead empower kids and support their growth. They cover practical examples and strategies for dealing with challenging behaviors and communication issues.
Ep 520- Marcus Higgs
Read the Transcript 🡮
*This is an auto-generated transcript*
[00:00:00] Marcus Higgs: If you fall short of your expectations, or if you do have a rupture, to use the language of parenting repair and reconnect because you're made stronger in the broken places that communicates you care, and that goes a long way.
[00:00:15] Hunter: You're listening to The Mindful Parenting Podcast, episode number 520. Today, we're talking about going from conflict to cooperation with Marcus Higgs.
Welcome to the Mindful Parenting Podcast. Here, it's about becoming a less irritable, more joyful parent. At Mindful Parenting, we know that you cannot give what you do not have, and when you have calm and peace within, then you can give it to your children. I'm your host, Hunter Clarke-Fields. I help smart, thoughtful parents stay calm so they can have strong, connected relationships with their children. I've been practicing mindfulness for over 25 years. I'm the creator of the Mindful Parenting course and teacher training, and I'm the author of the international bestseller “Raising Good Humans Every Day”, and the “Raising Good Humans Guided Journal”.
Yesterday I was on Zoom answering a question from a mom who had started a mindfulness practice and was struggling, and I realized how much I love that: I love connecting with people. I love answering these questions, and I want to do more of that here on the Mindful Parenting Podcast. Starting right now, you can leave me a voicemail with your mindful parenting questions. If you have a current parenting challenge, if you're frustrated with some behavior, if you want to know more about mindfulness and how to get started, you can leave me a voicemail with your question.
I'm so excited about this. The URL is mindfulmamamentor.com/VM. That's MindfulMamaMentor.com/VM. If your question is picked, I'll let you know, and it will become part of the Mindful Parenting Podcast. Leave your voicemail now, MindfulMamaMentor.com/VM.
Hi there, welcome back to the Mindful Parenting Podcast. I'm so glad you're here. In just a moment, we're going to be sitting down with Marcus Higgs, a communication coach for parents of preteens with 20 plus years of international experience. Marcus bridges relationship gaps to form long lasting parent child connections in multicultural families. So we're going to be talking about autonomy supportive parenting and why does it help with your kid. And we'll talk about mistakes we often make with communicating with our kids and how to empower them instead and support their growth. And we'll cover some practical examples and strategies for dealing with challenging behaviors and communication issues. Before we dive in, I want to just remind you that you can bring me to your workplace or school as a speaker.
In the last few years, I've done talks around the world for groups, and we've had so much fun. I really love it. I'm known for offering evidence based learning in a way that's clear, realistic, humorous, and immediately helpful. So go to mindfulmamamentor.com/speaking to book your dates. And now join me at the table as I talk to Marcus Higgs.
Marcus, thank you so much for coming on the Mindful Parenting Podcast.
[00:03:19] Marcus Higgs: I'm looking forward to this conversation.
[00:03:22] Hunter: I'm looking forward to talking to you too, talking about tweens, such a challenging and wonderful and interesting age. But before we get into tweens, I want to know a little bit about you.
Tweens is such a hard age felt this way even about the I felt this way, especially about the teachers of toddlers. I would look at my daughter's toddler teachers and be like, wow, you want to be with these kids. And then I was briefly a teacher of seventh graders and man, that was, I was only teaching halftime and it was like so challenging. I left teaching after that. That was my last year of teaching. So just curious about you and like how you were raised and what brought you to wanting to focus on tweens and parenting connections with tweens.
[00:04:13] Marcus Higgs: No, I'm smiling because It's just like, why? Why? I'll answer both questions. How was I raised?
And then I'll answer why particularly tweets. So I was born in California. I'm a third culture kid. And for the audience,
[00:04:28] Hunter: Wait. Yeah. What is that? I don't know what that means. You
[00:04:32] Marcus Higgs: know, thank you for being gracious. That was just for other podcasts. So it's just oh no, I know, but my audience.
Third culture is where your passport is. or the country which you identify with doesn't necessarily match that of your parents.
[00:04:47] Hunter: Okay. Yeah.
[00:04:48] Marcus Higgs: There's so many different variations of it. So you're growing up in a different culture, in a sense. My mom's from the Philippines. My dad's from the Bahamas. They met in Nebraska, and I was born in California.
[00:05:01] Hunter: Okay.
[00:05:02] Marcus Higgs: This is
[00:05:03] Hunter: the American story.
[00:05:05] Marcus Higgs: For sure. Yeah. I grew up in California and Alabama, and then California again. My father was in education, right? And they divorced when I was 12, when I moved with my father to the Bahamas.
[00:05:23] Hunter: Oh, wow. I bet the Bahamas was incredibly, A, California is so different from Alabama, I'm sure.
You, you got that right away, but then the Bahamas has got to be incredibly different from both of those, too. You really probably had to learn to adapt.
[00:05:40] Marcus Higgs: Hunter yes, and and I'm mentioning it now because it is a big part of what I do, but I grew up Seventh day Adventists. It's a denomination of Christianity, and I served as a missionary.
And the reason I'm mentioning it is because when my father was a teacher in the school there, professor, tertiary education I grew up in community and I was with wholesome people.
[00:06:03] Hunter: No drinking in Seventh day Adventists, all vegetarian. That's what I know about it.
[00:06:09] Marcus Higgs: Yeah, they're mostly vegetarian. My stepmom, my father, when he married again, she, we actually own a vegetarian restaurant.
And yeah, they're one of the Blue Zones in the Melinda. If you're familiar with that study, yeah.
[00:06:23] Hunter: There's some debate about the Blue Zones. Do you know this? No. Please. Okay. The Blue Zones, for the listener, are like these areas around the world that people have very long lives and they study what they eat and lifestyle and things like that.
Seventh Day Adventists in California is one of those Blue Zones, but they have recent, so they have discovered that. The blue zones also correlate to places where people had bad record keeping, where people were not keeping track of when people were born very well. And they think that I know, I've heard, no, this is not a fact check. But yeah, I've read that it may have more to do with bad record keeping a hundred years ago, when they didn't know, they weren't keeping track of when, Donna Maria was born, whatever.
[00:07:12] Marcus Higgs: I would say this. So we have Italy of Okinawa. They're all places where there's community.
[00:07:18] Hunter: Yeah. So
[00:07:19] Marcus Higgs: yeah, there is. The way you eat, move, and sleep. But then I think one thing that is lacking with, when we're talking about the loneliness epidemic or even our just well being, mental being and so on, is our disconnect from pro social activities. And if to tie that into why I do what I do now, so my title is the Communication Coach for Parents of Pre Teens.
I studied communication at Oakwood University in Huntsville, Alabama. And I remember Dr. Elliot, she told me the level of, the quality of your life is directly related to the quality of your communication. I believe that. Your ability to talk with yourself, and your ability to talk and connect with others.
I went to South Korea. I say my understanding of the divine expanded. No animosity towards anyone in the church, but Just took on new beliefs, taught in Saudi Arabia, Spain and Thailand and so on. And now I'm here with my aging parents, but, I have a set of skills, and if this were the long game, something I'm interested in, it is human development.
And, Mr. Roger said if you want to, Help the kids, you support the parents. So now I'm a communication coach. Specifically at that time where they're transitioning from independence to dependent. Just understanding what is needed at this developmental stage. So that's why I do what I do, yeah. And I taught 5th graders.
The thing is, the whole idea is to stay in the game long enough until I could teach them again. As parents, yeah.
[00:08:47] Hunter: That's interesting, yeah. Yeah, you feel like, I know for me anyway, One of the big reasons I studied communication styles and methodologies and things like that was because I was, I didn't inherit great communication skills.
I could talk to people. I'm a little bit, yeah, okay, I'm a little bit of an extrovert, but I didn't inherit great communication skills. Is that, was, did you have a similar experience?
[00:09:13] Marcus Higgs: I was personally, and I was told I was a good communicator myself. When I was a teenager, I think this informs a lot of my work too, being with my father.
We weren't, we were not meant to parent alone, but it was me and him, but I had all my aunties and uncles and so on, big community. I would see stuff that's, this is not right. And then later on when I grew up and understanding again, more gracious towards him. He's not the best communicator. He has always communicated his care.
For And I also used to see this in the classroom with the parents that they really do care, but it's just they don't know what's going on at this stage of life. They have their own stories. We are the stories we tell ourselves. To answer your question, it wasn't the best, but maybe that is why I was pushed to study communication.
I think I'm just interested in people. I really do love people. And I don't love your kids as much as you. I
[00:10:19] Hunter: didn't, I didn't love those seventh graders as much. That's for sure. Poor 7th graders. Someone, one of them is going to be a parent right now listening to this and they should be like, Oh man, Ms.
Clark Mills. I thought she was so nice. They're gonna be so disappointed in me.
[00:10:38] Marcus Higgs: You know what it is at that age? So fifth and sixth, it's right at the cusp. So like they still have that that they're a bit timid of crossing over into middle school, but seventh, eighth. That's when it really gets awkward.
Yeah, but that Pit and that sixth grader that's where it's just okay, you can still help mold them a bit more and prepare for what's coming next. And then, yeah, a stitch in time saves night. If you really establish that trust there, I think, You could ride it out through the teenage years, that would be more tumultuous.
[00:11:16] Hunter: Stay tuned for more Mindful Parenting podcasts right after this break.
[00:11:55] Hunter: I cut you off earlier. We got sidetracked on 7th and 7th Day Adventist, but
[00:12:00] Marcus Higgs: it's all good.
[00:12:01] Hunter: Was being in the Bahamas, was that really different culturally from California, from the United States?
What was it like there as a, when you were teen?
[00:12:10] Marcus Higgs: Yeah. I was speaking with a friend about this the other day, just personally, my experience growing up, I've always felt as other in the circles I occupy, because when I'm with my Filipino friends, I'm, I don't necessarily look Filipino, a black dude with an afro.
But then when I'm here in the Bahamas, I have an American accent, maybe so I said that I admit that either makes or breaks you. And I had to lean more into my, into who I am. It was different, but I think that also taught me the skill of getting in where I fit in. I feel comfortable in the skin. I am where I am by meeting people where they are.
And then finding the commonality and the intersections of where we are in that moment.
[00:12:53] Hunter: That's wonderful. That's good stuff. Yeah.
So let's try to understand these preteens, right? I think the tweens, I think you have, I think of them as nine to 13. You think of them, you 10 to 14, but like that, this is that age.
where they're just about to turn teens, they're at the end of childhood, they're transitioning into adulthood. I remember being 10 and feeling like I was at like the peak of my childhood power, just was like, it was all good. And then, 11, it was, it's all different. But what's going, let's, maybe we can just talk a little bit about generally, developmentally, what's going on for kids in this pre teen time.
[00:13:41] Marcus Higgs: Yeah I'll put it like this. Gabor Mate wrote, hold on to your child, right? And we know that's where you hold them close, you're nurturing them, hide eyes, skin to skin, make sure they're seen, safe, secure, and soothed. That's from Dan Siegel. You're really establishing that relationship there.
I like to think of it as maternal energy, but when they transition into independence and they have to go figure out who they are, there's a pushing away, a breaking away, and it could come from their side or your side, meaning you're as the parent, but they have to figure out who they are in their identity.
And in that pushing away, you still want to make sure they're seen, soothed, secure, and safe. However, you do it from afar so that they can create that inside themselves. And when I say inside themselves, introspection of understanding who they are. And this is their first time doing that. That's why I call it the first breaking of life.
It's through the breakings or transitions that we understand the biggest life question, which is, Who are you? That's what I think life is asking us at each stage. step of life. And we figure out who we are. A fix and a growth mindset looks the same until it's challenged. And that's why all of what I do, I say it is human development.
But I'm focusing on this specific time in this phrase, because if you help giving them empowering stories at this moment, they'll have those skills for when the next breaking comes and when the next breaking comes.
[00:15:19] Hunter: I was gonna say, it's just a paradoxical time, right? Like we are wanting to.
You're saying like, kids are pushing away and we're wanting to hold on to them, we're wanting to keep them soothed and safe, so there's a very much a push pull there.
[00:15:32] Marcus Higgs: Yeah. We want to keep them safe, yet Right now, they're being flooded with sensations so that, and you know what?
That is for their benefit. They are meant to go out there and take risks. So there's healthy risk and there's non healthy risk. But they want to test things, they want to try things, so then that's why they are more sensitive. Their emotions are high, still higher, and the lows feel lower. But it's so that they can test things.
It's just, they don't know what to trust yet. And what I call it a Wall of Bites. I C E. The three challenges they have are identity formation, C is Collaborative Trust. They don't know who to trust at that moment, right? Because the world is a scary place, or could be if they have that lens. And E is Emotional Management.
Their emotions are all over the place. So then how do we come as, we're also transitioning our roles. We used to be their managers, playdates and everything, food and when you eat. But now we have to be the coach or the guide on the side. So it's everybody's roles are changing with different expectations.
And it's all these transitions happening at the same time.
[00:16:41] Hunter: I love that. We used to be their managers and now we're the coach on the side. That's such a perfect description of the changing role as time goes on because, yeah, it, the, I think, I see it as from Burn a thon, right? Like it when they're born.
We control everything, and then over time it's that whole process of like you do more and more stuff and I'm with you and walking beside you rather than doing it for you. It's like that learning like that learning ladder, right? Like first I do it for you, then I do it with you, then I watch you do it, and then you do it on your own, right?
That's how we learn every single thing in life, is that, yeah, even, maybe even listening to this podcast, first you, we do it for them, right? We listen, you listen, and you say, oh, okay, these people are doing it, and then we do it with you, right? You try things out. And then you have successes, and you have failures, and then we're doing it with you, and then you do it on your own, right?
But I love that.
[00:17:38] Marcus Higgs: In that letter, it first starts off with observation. So they have to watch us when we model it. And then, when you do it long enough, actually the roles switch themselves because independence is not the final stage. It's interdependence. Speaking with you earlier as I told you I'm with my aging parents now and it's you understand how they poured into my life So I pour back and that's where there's care and concern for other people.
[00:18:05] Hunter: yeah, I guess independence is it's like the American and individualist All those mindsets coming through in the way we talk. Okay, so we're talking about communication with teens, pre teens. What are some of the biggest mistakes that parents are making in our communication with teens?
I imagine a lot of it is for us having that difficulty for us transitioning from manager to coach.
[00:18:30] Marcus Higgs: I, okay, so let's frame this conversation with a book again, Ellen Golanski's The Breakthrough Years. Have you heard of it? Okay, so anybody who has adolescence, please pick up this book.
And she just, I think it just came out this year or earlier this year. I will start it off by saying people move towards our expectations, right? We oftentimes call teenagers or adolescents immature, and we would never call a toddler an immature child. There's just specific needs at that developmental phase, stage.
We don't call a child an immature teenager, no, they're just, they're things that child, children need. And when I say children below nine years old. When we call teenagers immature, and especially adolescents, it's somewhat demeaning, you're taking away their worth, you're not acknowledging their wisdom.
And that sets up the conversation, as the adult in the room, you're already disempowering them in the conversation. We spoke about autonomy supportive parenting. And really, for autonomy supportive parenting to happen, you have to recognize the wisdom of the other person and their desires. As every individual, we have desires.
And this comes from conscious parenting as well. Recognizing the sovereignty of the individual in front of you. Now, as the adult in the room, you still have the final say, per se. But it's how do you let that out, bit by bit. And every kid is different. If you have two kids, you understand this. So it's how you gauge it for this child and how do you gauge it for that child.
But the principle is scaffolding. It's inviting them into the conversation, understanding their wants and needs, and then supporting them towards that as they start to figure themselves out.
[00:20:29] Hunter: I think I answered it, but I can't remember the question. I was asking about the mistakes that parents made, and actually we didn't mention autonomy supported parenting earlier, so we do want to define that for the people, for the listener.
[00:20:41] Marcus Higgs: Yes. So the mistake is, sorry, the mistake is first of all, I feel it's very disempowering when you say this person is not mature you cut them off even before they're starting.
[00:20:53] Hunter: It's one of the mistakes you're saying is like our whole mindset about the tween time being immature and instead maybe we want to just think of them as like having their own specific needs just like any other phase.
I love that. Yeah.
[00:21:07] Marcus Higgs: Yeah. Yeah. If you go into a setting and say, I'm going to have a horrible time. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Or even the Pygmalion effect, where a teacher was given two classes, and she was told one class was low achievers and the others were high, and by the end of the school year, that's exactly how they moved, whereas they were both neutral classes.
[00:21:30] Hunter: Yeah, I remember that study.
[00:21:32] Marcus Higgs: And then, I'll do you one even better, Hunter. There was this, I can't remember the name of this study, but they had these rats, and over the rats, they labeled them Good Rat, Bad Rat, Good Rat, Bad Rat. Or Smart Dumb. They ran them through the maze and the dumb rats performed slower.
Oh my god. It's just that there were random, those were random labels though. And this is not woo, this is actually what happened. They looked back at the video and the smart rats were actually handled better by the researchers and it lowered their heart rate so they were more calm as they ran through the maze.
So when I say we moved towards our expectations, I really do believe that.
[00:22:10] Hunter: Yeah. Yeah, I believe that too. So then what kind of expectations would you encourage parents to have for their tweens?
[00:22:18] Marcus Higgs: The word parent that homology in the root of it, and education for that matter, means to bring forth. The way I interact with people and specifically teenagers, is, first of all, I understand there's awesomeness in there.
And as teachers, we create the context for that expression to happen. Every. And we work with what presents itself, how might I meet what comes forth? What do I encourage? Where your focus goes, your energy flows. What am I giving praise to? What gets praised gets repeated. Am I setting the right expectations?
And when those expectations aren't met, it's either one of two things. Either one, they don't have the skills to do it, or two, they don't have the support to do it. The third thing is, actually, they don't care about it. Which is valid, actually, but if they don't care about it, then that's a conversation to have.
It's all a conversation to have, but you let them know you're supported in this conversation, I'm on your side.
[00:23:17] Hunter: I love that. When expectations are not met. It's either they don't have the skills to do it, they don't have the support to do it they don't really care about it. I think that's that, that couldn't be more true, that's one of the reasons why I was such a proponent of Montessori education for my kids, because they, I know that they'll learn so much better if they have some autonomy, some choice, if they care about what they're doing a little bit more, if they have some buy in and interest.
It's yeah, that's that's an essential ingredient.
[00:23:50] Marcus Higgs: Oh that goes along with self determination theory.
Right? It's something that you chose that you love to see mastery and a progress in and then you're doing it in Relational connection with other people. Yeah.
[00:24:02] Hunter: Okay, you mentioned autonomy supported parenting talk about what that is.
[00:24:07] Marcus Higgs: Yeah It's an approach to parenting. I forget her name in her book right now Really what it is, I think, how all development and how all learning happens. And that is by, in life we have challenges. Often times when we face those challenges when we're kids, we don't understand that this is inherent in life.
I believe that's how things move, through forces, and all a conflict is just a differing of forces, before getting too deep. So kids think, what's wrong with me? Autonomous, Autonomous Supportive Parenting is very close to Collaborative Problem Solving. But what it says is, nothing's wrong with you.
Let's understand this together. Collaboration. You're inviting them to get their perspective because you have to meet them where they are in their head. We understand it as adults, but like you have to meet them in their language and from their relevancy. And then you say, let's come up with a solution together and an approach to this managing it.
And it's just an experiment. And if it falls short, we'll come back and we'll visit it again. When I say falls short, it's just yeah let's get some data. And Is it moving us towards our desires? If it's not, then let's come and do it again. And then they know. So I have my hands up for those who are listening.
It's not necessarily us against them, but rather we're facing it together. And what autonomy, supportive parenting in a very short word is just scaffolding. You're helping them towards what they want and you're supporting them. And that's how you move somebody towards independence.
[00:25:44] Hunter: I can hear the listener kind of hearing this, but saying, I have a 10 year old.
I have an 11 year old. I want this 11 year old to speak to me in a good way. Kind, respectful way. I want them to behave, meaning I want them to pick up their stuff when they come home. I want them to take care of some chores around the house. This all sounds wonderful, Marcus, but how does all of this communication translate into something in the real world?
[00:26:15] Marcus Higgs: Yeah very good. I hear you. It translates, excuse me, it translate, but translates by setting clear expectations and boundaries because that's actually what's coming up during this stage of life. You're letting them understand, I'm going to need you to do some things by yourself. And I can give you two practical examples right after I say this because all of this is just words until we see it in action.
, and this is more effortful. Like it takes longer because you have to be more patient with this. And I think there also comes that understanding of when you understand parenting is not, it's not a marathon. It's beyond a marathon. It's not a sprint. It's not a marathon. It is a lifetime.
[00:26:57] Hunter: It's an ultra marathon.
It's 10 ultra marathons.
[00:27:01] Marcus Higgs: So I'll give you a more practical one from one from the book and then one from my own lived experience In the book this 10 year old used to come in from school And he used to sit down plop down and play video games or watch tv and he was messing up with his homework His mother noticed it was a problem started that conversation with him and said, Hey, what do you think we can do about this?
Because this is why it's a problem. And he came up with a solution that said, maybe I enter into the other door. And when I enter into the other door, I can either have two choices. I can either do video games for so long, and then I have to do homework for the rest of the time. Or I sit down with my homework this amount of time, and then I could play a little bit of video games.
They tried that solution and it worked. And it doesn't happen the first time, every time. Okay. That listener is listening. I understand that sounds idealistic. But the kid got to own his results. The mother recognized his wisdom. And not all kids are like this. I worked with kids. I get it. I understand.
But that is the approach to it, right? One thing you said is, have a, yeah, these are my words, not yours, but you said, I have this 10 year old who's talking back. They have an attitude. One thing I like to share with my parents is all things, all emotions are acceptable, not all behaviors.
And as we start to understand their emotions, and we start to talk them through it, or we come back after the snow globe has settled, to use a metaphor, it's that's how they start to understand their inner world, and that's what we're there for. We're there to help them be introspective and understand it, or make sense of it.
I'll give you this one last example, and then we can move on, or I'll follow your lead. I was in the classroom, and somebody left the sink on. It overflowed, and all the whole floor was wet, and nobody was supposed to be inside the classroom during break time. Now, I have this thing in my classroom with my 5th graders.
We always used to say, sounds like a you problem. And what a you problem is it's a problem you're having, and I think you can solve it. It's your responsibility. I started hearing my fifth grader say this to each other, as in to say I don't want to help you. I said no guys, if somebody asked for help or support, we can still help them.
They're responsible for solving it. A you problem doesn't mean I don't want to help you. Anyhow, the floor was wet and some girls were in the classroom. And I said, I was frustrated. Yeah. I said, guys, my job is to keep you safe. That is my job as a teacher. I'm not blaming anybody. And I said, I am upset. I said, either go outside or help me clean it up.
I said, this is a me problem. I'm not asking who did it. But will you either help me, or will you please go outside? And the reason I bring this up is because Autonomy Supportive Parenting is you also living this. What I do in my framework, the show up framework, is I help the parent understand themselves and their needs to communicate this.
It's personal development for the thing that's most relevant to them, which is their kid. And in Autonomy Supportive Parenting, recognize your autonomy, recognize who you are as a sovereign being. and your needs and your boundaries. And when you're communicating this effectively, your kids can see, oh yeah no, this is what it means to be delineated.
And that's all right.
[00:30:23] Hunter: You're sharing that example. And from what you're describing sounds to me I would translate it into the language of that's like win problem solving, right? We're saying, what do you need? This is what I need. We're having a conversation about it. We're coming up with some ideas and solutions together.
We're meeting each other where we are at. We're modeling, what you're describing is modeling respect, modeling an expectation that your tween is has got it together enough to be able to, and cares about you enough and all of those things to be able to participate in all of these problem solving things, and so that goes back to that Expectation in the beginning, what are you what are we moving toward?
[00:31:07] Marcus Higgs: Yeah. I was going to say I understand the examples I presented sound idealistic, but when we put out solutions, of course, kids are going to come with, I get to eat popcorn all night and watch movies until two o'clock in the morning. There's going to be some outlandish stuff. I think the difference is, of course, yeah we acknowledge those, we laugh at them and we push them off.
But really what we're doing is we're telling our kids, you have a voice here.
[00:31:33] Hunter: Yeah.
[00:31:34] Marcus Higgs: This student voice, student choice, for those who come from the classroom. And while you acknowledge that, you actually You're affirming them in showing up in the world.
[00:31:44] Hunter: Yeah.
Stay tuned for more Mindful Parenting podcast right after this break.
[00:32:25] Hunter: Okay, let's take another real life example. What about for the kid who is just talking to their parent with the, when we talk, take that example from earlier with, the parent. With an attitude. They're being, they're being mean, they're being rude, they're maybe sarcastic, maybe eye rolling.
How would you coach a parent to deal with that?
[00:32:48] Marcus Higgs: Yeah what gets mentioned gets managed. Maybe if not in the moment, don't deal with it. But acknowledge it and say, let's put a pin in this to come back to it later. There are I do read a lot, which is why I read your book, but 14 Conversations to Have Before 14, that's a book, sorry, excuse me, yeah, with Sheldon, yeah, sometimes my brain just goes on and on.
For a kid who has an attitude like that I would let them know that, that First of all, I don't expect them to have that behavior, right? So I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw a lot of spaghetti at the wall and let's see what sticks. One go to phrase that I have when I'm working with kids at that age, it's, is this the type of person you want to be?
So I'm letting them understand, That they're actually controlling of how they show up, right? Now, this kid might have something towards you, as a parent, as a teacher, caregiver. I have to understand, it's not personal. It's not permanent. It's not pervasive. It's not in all things, maybe in this instant. With it not being personal, I understand all of this is easier said than done.
But I let that person know, I don't talk to you like that. I don't treat you like that because I want to speak to your dignity. Let's come back and talk to it if emotions are high. But this cannot continue like this. And, you can actually, another way to do it, another approach in communication, is ABC.
You acknowledge it, and you accept their reasoning for it. So if things have cooled down and we're talking about it again, you want to have briefer conversations, not longer ones. So a lot of the work that I do is actually preventative, but Accept it. When I say accept it, accept their understanding.
They don't have the full story, but you accept their information. So you don't get defensive, but rather you build upon it of what I saw, these are my observations, and actually this is maybe why you feel like that. Now you feel as if they're, you're on their side and then you challenge it with curiosity.
And what you're doing is you're inviting them to have a different perspective. So when you do that, how do, how does that make me feel? Or how does it move us towards what we want together? And when I say challenge with curiosity, that's a question because you're not trying to tell 'em that they're wrong and you're not trying to beat them down because that might exasperate the problem.
What you're doing is actually you're setting up the context in their own mind, and then you're inviting them to a different perspective.
[00:35:25] Hunter: Yeah. I like that. Acknowledge, Accept, A, Build upon what I saw, and then Curiosity get that.
[00:35:34] Marcus Higgs: And that build upon while you are giving your information, but then you're also building upon their argument.
When I say that, you're saying, I get you. I understand why you feel like this. So you're building up their argument for them. So like they, they feel as if they don't have to defend something or they're not fighting to prove something. It's no, you've proven it to me. I've heard you.
I've listened. There's active listening. I'm wondering in this critical thinking at the end, how could we have done this differently or how is this moving us towards what we want?
[00:36:09] Hunter: I can't imagine. I can. But that's the language of I'm wondering, or how is this moving towards what we want? It sounds like not that authentic kind of language to me, like as far as it sounds like what a therapist would say. But it would be, it might, I'm wondering if it might feel like to the kids that the parent is being inauthentic as they're trying out these kind of things.
But I'm not that, I'm just trying to play devil's advocate and imagine it from the parent's point of view and from the kid's point of view. But I think what what you said before, like what gets mentioned gets managed I think is so true because say a kid comes to us with an attitude, your 10 year old starts giving you an attitude all of a sudden, for a bunch of reasons.
and you just think, Oh, it'll pass. And you just, I think that's that's also inauthentic to ignore it. If you had a friend who suddenly was talking to you in a, in that way, you probably wouldn't ignore it from a friend. Or if your partner suddenly talked to you that way, you probably wouldn't ignore it from them.
So the, like that acknowledge of like acknowledgement or what I saw or what I'm hearing is this. I think is really important. For me, I'm curious to see if you agree with me about this, because some people really disagree about this, is I believe that it's okay for our kids to, for us to say hey, when you talk to me like that I feel sad.
It makes me think, I don't really want to be near you when you talk to me like that, which would be a very honest thing for me. I've said that to my daughters. And some people feel like they don't want to share their feelings with their kids because they don't want to make their kids responsible for their feelings and I understand that point of view.
But on the other hand, kids can tell your feelings anyway. It's not like they're like in this hidden secret box that no one knows, right? Like we emote our feelings all the time in everything we say anyway. So anyway what would you say to that sort of response as a communication coach, Marcus?
[00:38:19] Marcus Higgs: Beautiful beautiful. Really at the root of the problem of the first one, and I say problem, but You're absolutely right. When the person thinks you're being inauthentic, it won't resonate. It's an issue of trust. And trust is only built on authenticity. It's three things. Authenticity, it makes sense to them, and they know you care about them, and you know that there's well being.
I fully support a parent saying, hey, this is how this is making me feel. Because you're communicating, you're modeling to your kid, we can share our feelings. And you know what? You're not responsible for causing this feeling. You might think they are. They may have been the catalyst for it, but you own your feelings, and this is informing me of what's going on, and I really don't like this, I need to let you know.
Now, you can make a request for your kid to change, and this comes from nonviolent communication. You make a request for your kid to change, they may or may not, but you totally own your feelings because you let your kid know. I want you to express to me if I make you feel a way, because I'm here, because I care about you.
This is the thing about kids, right? This is their first game to communication. They do not communicate fairly. We have to model that for them. So I can't expect a kid to, sometimes kids are manipulative. Sometimes kids don't anyhow I'm extending it, but be authentic, be real with your kids.
[00:39:46] Hunter: No, I appreciate you saying that because sometimes like we look at what kids are saying and then for the most part, kids are going about trying to meet their needs. That's what's going on. And sometimes getting mom or dad to do what I want them to do is one of the ways they're meeting their needs.
In general, it's not super helpful for us to imagine that our kids are manipulative, but occasionally they're human. They are, especially if they're in that sort of 10 to 10 plus range, right? Like they might have a little experience with, Oh, that worked out that one time or whatever. So yeah, you're, I appreciate that you're sharing like the range of what can happen here.
[00:40:24] Marcus Higgs: And I think if we care about their well being, we would set those hard boundaries to say, I can't meet those needs. Or, that sounds like a you problem, whereas you are responsible for meeting that need, and I support you in doing that. Whatever you need to meet that, I will support you in as much as I can, but I have this need over here.
[00:40:43] Hunter: Yeah when this is, yeah, who owns the problem is such an important question to ask. Is this your problem? This is my problem. When my kids come to me with a problem, a lot of times it's not my problem, and that is something that we've talked about plenty of times here on the Mindful Parenting Podcast.
It's this is, sometimes things are not your problem. And having that as a mantra can help you to just have a little more, I think it can help you have a little bit more just objectivity, calm, steadiness that's not my problem, I don't have to solve this problem, but I can be here for you. I can be your friend, I can be your coach, or I can be your sounding board as you go about solving this problem.
[00:41:20] Marcus Higgs: I think where a lot of people fall down is they think it's black or white also. And that's where Autonomy Supportive Parenting comes in. Sometimes it is just critical thinking. Maybe it is getting their gears running. Of how can you solve this and I'll give you that advice as a coach. But then, I trust you.
Again, that's how you build trust in them. I trust you to solve this because I know you got it.
[00:41:40] Hunter: This is great. I think that obviously we have a lot of overlap and things to talk about here. Thinking about tweens and their cuckoo crazy years. Is there, and first I want you to share where people can find you. And then I wonder if there, is there anything that we missed that you want to share with the listener?
[00:42:03] Marcus Higgs: Yes. MarcusHiggs.com- my name- that's where you can find me, and on LinkedIn is where I hang out. You'll find me other places online, but LinkedIn is where I have these conversations. What we missed out on is two things, and I'll make them very quick. The first one is growth is a stress response. If we're here about human development and human growth, things grow when they are stressed-
[00:42:33] Hunter: Muscles, all kinds of things.
[00:42:34] Marcus Higgs: Yeah, and that's a whole longer conversation. The thing is when they know that stress is regular intervals and that stress is manageable and if that stress overextends me, I know there's support. That's when we manage stress. That's exercising really what I just described to you
So when you know that how can we create these? Pockets of stress that's why learning It's stressful for some people, but on the other end of it, it's growth. The second thing I'll say is yeah, Repair and Reconnect.
If you fall short of your expectations, or if you do have a rupture, to use the language of parenting. Repair and Reconnect because you're made stronger in the broken places that communicates you care and that goes a long way. And again, that comes back to something was stressed, it was broken, you mend it back, then we move forward.
[00:43:28] Hunter: Yeah. Beautiful. I love that. Marcus, thank you. It's been really a pleasure to meet and talk to you and to talk about tweens. And I really appreciate you taking the time to join us here on the Mindful Parenting Podcast.
[00:43:45] Marcus Higgs: It's a pleasure. It was a pleasure. Yes. Thank you also.
[00:43:53] Hunter: Thanks so much for listening. I hope this podcast episode helped you. If you enjoyed it, if you'd like to text a friend about the show today, text it to somebody. who could use it. I know it could be helpful. Or, you could leave a podcast review on Apple Podcasts. That makes a huge difference too.
I love that. It's hard to get a little podcast like this one known out in the world and you helping makes all the difference. So thank you. Thank you so much in advance. We mentioned a couple things in this episode. We mentioned my episodes with Gabor Mate. You can find him on episode number 422 and 481 of the Mindful Parenting Podcast, and Dan Siegel, we also mentioned him, so you can find my interviews with him on episode 498 and 109. So go ahead and find those if you want to dig into this a little bit more. And we are coming up on the end of the year with the podcast, so you are going to hear next Tuesday, The best of 2024, the best top five episodes of 2024.
You'll hear some great clips from them. And then the week after that, you're going to hear an interview with me called “Permission to be Human”. And it's going to be a part of a stress and how to cope series that we're going to start on December 31st. So make sure you're subscribed. Make sure you listen. Share the podcast and I hope it's helping you. I love hearing that the podcast connects with people And I hope it's connecting with you and supporting your life and supporting you to be a more grounded peaceful mindful parent and Yeah, remember you don't have to get it all perfect. Just you're watering your good seeds for this episode. So that's all good. Give yourself a pat on the back and, give yourself some time to rest and chill and have some ease too today. I wish you many great big hugs from your kids. and lovely moments, maybe some deep breaths and time in nature and all those good things, all the good things. And I will be back talking to you real soon.
Thank you so much for listening. And if you're in this season, this like crazy, busy holiday season, just, don't feel like you have to do it all perfectly. It's okay to just do what you can. And you know what? Your kids need you grounded and peaceful and present more than they need the stuff or the experiences. They need you. And they need some downtime and so do you. So give that to yourself this season. Give that to your kids. Breathe. Put your feet on the ground. Put your hand on your heart. Take a deep breath in and a long slow exhale and know that you're enough. All right, I'll be back talking to you again really soon.
Thank you so much for listening. Namaste.
[00:47:07] Mindful Mama Member: I'd say definitely do it. It's really helpful. It will change your relationship with your kids for the better. It will help you communicate better. And just, I'd say communicate better as a person, as a wife, as a spouse. It's been really a positive influence in our lives. So definitely do it. I'd say definitely do it. It's so worth it. The money really is inconsequential when you get so much benefit from being a better parent to your children. Feeling like you're connecting more with them and not feeling like you're yelling all the time or you're like, why isn't this working? I would say definitely do it. It's so worth it. It'll change you. No matter what age someone's child is, it's a great opportunity for personal growth and it's a great investment in someone's family. I'm very thankful I have this. You can continue in your old habits that aren't working, or you can learn some new tools and gain some perspective.
[00:48:10] Hunter: Are you frustrated by parenting? Do you listen to the experts and try all the tips and strategies, but you're just not seeing the results that you want? Or are you lost as to where to start? Does it all seem so overwhelming with too much to learn? Are you yearning for community people who get it, who also don't want to threaten and punish to create cooperation?
Hi, I'm Hunter Clarke-Fields and if you answered yes to any of these questions, I want you to seriously consider the Mindful Parenting membership. You will be joining hundreds of members who have discovered the path of mindful parenting and now have confidence and clarity in their parenting. This isn't just another parenting class. This is an opportunity to really discover your unique, lasting relationship, not only with your children, but with yourself. It will translate into lasting, connected relationships, not only with your children, but your partner too. Let me change your life. Go to mindfulparentingcourse.com to add your name to the So you will be the first to be notified when I open the membership for enrollment. I look forward to seeing you on the inside: MindfulParentingCourse.com
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